Until the start of the environment turn

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arenson9
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Until the start of the environment turn

Parse has Exploit Vulnerability in play

  • Whenever a non-hero target enters play, increase damage dealt to that target by 1 until the start of the environment turn

 

Expatriette has Hairtrigger Reflexes in play

  • Whenever a non-hero target enters play, Expatriette may deal that target 1 projectile damage

 

It's the Environment turn. It's the start phase. There's an environment card in play that has a start of turn effect which brings an environment target into play. Expatriette chooses to deal that target 1 projectile damage. Is the damage boosted by one due to Exploit Vulnerability?

 

My intuition is that when Exploit Vulnerability triggers in the start of the environment turn, its effect immediately expires, but I could see one arguing that its effect would last until the next start of the environment turn.

 

As an aside, since neither Exploit Vulnerability nor Hairtrigger Reflexes have start of turn nor end of turn effects, the fact that the action is occuring during the start of a turn has no bearing on the order in which their effects are applied. It's up to the players to decide. If my intuition about is correct, the order is irrelevant, since Eploit Vulnerability's effect immediately expires. If not, the players would be able to decide whether or not they want to boost the damage.


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It's the next turn. There was a bug with Throat Jab (and similar cards) that were played at the start of their turn and immediately expired. It was ruled and fixed that it lasts until the next turn.


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"Until" means "ending directly before," as discussed with the interaction between The Next Evolution and Infection.


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Pydro wrote:

It's the next turn. There was a bug with Throat Jab (and similar cards) that were played at the start of their turn and immediately expired. It was ruled and fixed that it lasts until the next turn.

Throat Jab states until the start of your next turn whereas Exploit Vulnerabilty lists just start of the environment turn.  A similar item occurs if I play Slip Through Time with Electro Deployment Unit in that it will get destroyed during the Start of Turn phase. 


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McBehrer
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That's different, though. That's an "AT the start of your turn" effect, which adds to the que of things to happen DURING the phase. UNTIL means before, so once it's the phase, it's too late.

 


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We are arguing the same point McBehrer about Exploit Vulnerability.  Throat Jab does work until the start of your next turn even if played at the start of Wraith's turn based on its wording andee even have a ruling to that affect.   Exploit Vulnerabilty would expire immediately because it does not say until the start of the next environment turn but just start of the environment turn.  


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Rabit
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Just FYI: According to the text arenson9 posted, above, Exploit Vulnerability says, "Whenever a non-hero target enters play, increase damage dealt to that target by 1 until the start of the environment turn" (emphasis mine). 


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Which is why I think in this case it expires during the same start of the environment turn if a target played at the start of an environment turn.  

Edit: To have it last a round for a target played at the start of the environment turn Exploit Vulnerabilty would need to say until the start of the next environment turn. 


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Rabit
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Ah! Thanks for the clarification -- I thought you were focusing on the "until". smiley


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Your intuition you keep referring to is wrong. Things that last until the start of X turn expire well before any effect that begins "At the start of [X] turn..." will trigger.

EDIT: Pretend there is a card in play that is always the first to trigger that says, "At the start of the environment turn, end all effects that last until the start of the environment turn." It only triggers one time, because that is how it works.

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Can we take a look at another "Until" example? Maybe that will help.

BoT Chrono has wording like "Until the next time you use a power". In this particular case "Until" does not mean "ending directly before" as Mcbehrer has put forth. The power must be used and resolved to be considered used (this definition of power use has been ruled on in other cases as well iirc).

In context of Arenson's question, could it be the case that Exploit Vulnerability's effect expires simultaneous to other "Start of Turn" triggers, giving the player an effective choice on whether to increase the damage or not?

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I would say that the damage could be increased only during that start of environment turn but once the environment gets to playing a card that affect has expired.


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In order in which cards are played, I would resolve all start of turn/end of turn cards. So if Exploit Vulnerability is played after Con's Bunker, you'd be able to shoot any target it brings out for extra damage. This works, right?


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I would agree with that.  


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Pydro
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Powerhound_2000 wrote:

Edit: To have it last a round for a target played at the start of the environment turn Exploit Vulnerabilty would need to say until the start of the next environment turn. 

Actually, I don't quite agree with this statement. I understand that things are supposed to be taken literally, but in the past my literal interpretation isn't always the same as someone else's. I feel that all "until the..." happen at the same time (and I am very comfortable with that and it makes things a lot easier as that it how the mechanic works), but that still leaves some leeway in the exact wording. Why? Because most of the time when something says "the start of the next turn" it is because the card is most likely played on your turn, and that added clarification works very well. However, for an "until" effect that most likely won't expire on the turn that it is applied (not that it can't just that it mostly doesn't), saying the statement without "next" works a little better. If it said "until the start of the next environment turn" doesn't sound as good or clean as "until the start of the envirnment turn" even though it might cover 1 edge case without clarification

In other words, there are two possibilites to me:

1) The difference is wording indicates a difference in mechanic. Which means that not only are there no universal rules for "until", andthere are some unresovled issues that haven't been discussed yet (when exactly does the efect end). 

2) That there is a universal mechaninc of "until", and while the wording difference might be confusing, it does make sense in the context.

I would pick #2.


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Killswitch wrote:

In order in which cards are played, I would resolve all start of turn/end of turn cards. So if Exploit Vulnerability is played after Con's Bunker, you'd be able to shoot any target it brings out for extra damage. This works, right?

Order played is irrelevant after the current Order of Operations rule changes though. Nothing stoping you from resolving things in order though if thats how you choose to do so

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I would like to agree with you Pydro but other cards with similar wording have next in their wording and this doesn't which seems intentional.  


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Foote
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Guess we have to wait for the next fireside chat on this huh?

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That will be a while since Vengeance won't be until after Wrath of the Cosmos and mini pack 3


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Pydro
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Killswitch wrote:

In order in which cards are played, I would resolve all start of turn/end of turn cards. So if Exploit Vulnerability is played after Con's Bunker, you'd be able to shoot any target it brings out for extra damage. This works, right?

I would say no, perhaps it is because of how I am viewing things. Compare Takedown and Mistbound. There are two ways that the effect stops:

1) You have to stop the effect manually (destroy the card).

2) It stops after a predetermined duration.

 

This can be compared to the following situation. You turn on a light at 9AM and you want it to last an hour, and there are two ways to turn it off:

1) At 10AM you go turn off the light.

2) You set a timer for an hour and then the light goes off.

 

In the first case, it makes sense that if you are busy doing other things you would delay turning off the light. However, by #2, it is going to go off immediately, regardless of what you are doing. There is nothing in Sentinels that says an effect needs to "wait in line" for it to stop, only that you need to "wait in line" to manually stop it.


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Pydro
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Powerhound_2000 wrote:

I would like to agree with you Pydro but other cards with similar wording have next in their wording and this doesn't which seems intentional.  

Then I guess my question is what exactly is the intent? The intent seems to be very dertimental in very specific cases. What exploitable/powerful situation was to be avoided by this specific intent?


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From my understanding, this is perfectly testable within the game as is. One way is to take NightMist to the Wagner Mars Base. On NightMist's turn after Self-Destruct Sequence comes into play, you would play Mistbound. On NightMist's following turn you will now be able to easily tell which triggers first. If it is Mistbound, we would know "Until the start of x turn" ends before any "at the start x turn". If Self-Destruct Sequence is first, then we would know that "Until the start of x turn" follows the same rules as the other. 

 

Edit: I have tested it. Mistbound ended first, then asked if I would like to skip the rest of my turn for the Self-Destruct Sequence. So I am still in the camp that Exploit Vulnerability would still increase damage dealt to non-hero targets if they entered play at the start of the Environment turn.

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Thanks everyone.

 

Pydro, I liked your explanation of the 'intent' of the wording. It's well known that we need to take things literally in this game, and yet in this case I think you're spot on.

 

Ronway, thanks for that test.

 

I'm convinced that the additional +1 wouldn't expire immediately, but last until the start of the next environment turn. 


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The best test for me would be a card which just stay "until the start of x turn" and not "until the start of next x turn".   Mistbound lists until the start of your next turn which is different from the wording on Exploit Vulnerabilty

edit: The Naturalist has cards which are "until the start of your turn" in Predator's eye and Threatening Stomp.   Parse also has Targeting Arrow which is "until start of your turn".   All other hero cards outside of those in the card spoiler sheet list "until the start of your next turn" which makes me wonder if more so of this was just a misprint and they should contain the word next as this only occurs with those two Vengeance heroes.  Based on seeing that makes me more inclined to believe it should last until the next start of environment turn for Exploit Vulnerability.


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As I understand it, players can choose when stuff happens if it would happen "at the same time", but stuff that specifies an exact phase or whatever has to occur in order, like you do with all villain and environment effects. It's the same with player stuff too - Unity's bots that attack stuff at the end of her turn will do so in the order they were played. Omni-10's components trigger at the start of each of his turns and if you use an Electro-Deployment Unit to play Slip Through Time the latter would be destroyed during that same phase. And then there's all the fun that can be had with the Self-Destruct Sequence and things like Ground Pound or Grease Gun, where if the Self-Destruct came out first the hero can skip their turn and end up keeping out their card for potentially the rest of the game :D.

I would say that if something occurs "at" the start/end of a turn, it goes off in order during that phase. If it says it lasts "until" that time, it would trigger as soon as that phase starts (or, if you prefer, the moment the preceding phase ends). I'm pretty sure that's how I tend to play it, anyway. So I suppose a target coming out in the start phase of the environment turn would, under Exploit Vulnerability, receive +1 damage until the start of the next environment turn, ie you'd have a whole round in which to take advantage of the damage bonus.


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Ameena wrote:

I would say that if something occurs "at" the start/end of a turn, it goes off in order during that phase. If it says it lasts "until" that time, it would trigger as soon as that phase starts (or, if you prefer, the moment the preceding phase ends). I'm pretty sure that's how I tend to play it, anyway. So I suppose a target coming out in the start phase of the environment turn would, under Exploit Vulnerability, receive +1 damage until the start of the next environment turn, ie you'd have a whole round in which to take advantage of the damage bonus.

This is my view, also.


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Foote wrote:

Order played is irrelevant after the current Order of Operations rule changes though. Nothing stoping you from resolving things in order though if thats how you choose to do so

Cite?  Last I heard, order played was still relevant for effects that happen during Start and End phases.

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AlexxKay wrote:
Foote wrote:
Order played is irrelevant after the current Order of Operations rule changes though. Nothing stoping you from resolving things in order though if thats how you choose to do so

 

Cite?  Last I heard, order played was still relevant for effects that happen during Start and End phases.

Nope, my mistake. You are correct.