The Best Heroes-A Statistical Community Effort

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Envisioner
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For that matter, when you win against The Dreamer, there should be a "Did Protect Her" option.

(And I still think the incap checkboxes for heroes ought to be able to distinguish whether the hero had incap turns or died in the final round.)


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

lynkfox
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If you win against hte Dreamer it is a standard win. There is only one way to win against the dreamer, and that is to protect her.

 

If you loose against the dreamer, however, there are two ways. She dies, or your heroes are all incapped. Which is why there is an option. If you dont select the option, then a loss against The Dreamer is automatically Heroes Incapped.

 

If you win against the Dreamer, then it is automatically protect her. There is no other win condition possible.

 

 

And for the sake of simplicity, nope on the incaps. 


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Envisioner
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lynkfox wrote:

If you win against hte Dreamer it is a standard win.

"How did the game end?  For any game where it is in a way other than the villain reaching 0 HP."

Don't look at me, I didn't write it.

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And for the sake of simplicity, nope on the incaps.

Fair enough.  Maybe one day I'll figure out how to make my own spreadsheet so that part can be tested.


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

dclietz
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I wrote a script to see how the various heroes and villians are impacted by the player count (as I didn't see that done elsewhere - may have missed it) - see attached. Interestingly, some villians get much easier (with my metric - Omnitron, The Chairman, Plague Rat, The Matriarch, Iron Legacy, Voss) with more players, some stay about the same (Spite, Akashbhuta, Apostate, Dawn, Kismet), and The Dreamer gets much harder (and is actually the hardest 5p villain). I think this is mostly due to the extent of H icon usage and/or group vs individual attacks.

Similarly, some heroes get much better in larger groups (again by my metric - Visionary, Bunker, Tempest, Legacy, Wraith, Fixer) some get just a bit better (Haka, Chrono, Argent Adept) and some stay about the same (Absolute Zero, Nightmist, Omnitron-X). I think utility like villian deck manipulation and Legacy's base power gets better with larger groups, and heroes that have basically their own game plan seem to be just as good in 3P as in 5P. Some of the results for the heroes surprise me - I would have guessed Absolute Zero would add more to bigger teams b/c he gains so much when his damage is pumped.

The metric I used is a combination of percentage gained and percentage gained as a function of how much could be gained. So going from 40% to 60% win rate is a lot, but going from 60% to 80% is worth more.

Envisioner
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Did your metric measure Miss Information?  She should definitely come out to be harder for higher H values.  Not quite as much of a no-brainer as the Dreamer (where you have to kill Hx2 targets and deal with H-1 card players per turn after losing H cards in play), but still noteworthy for how long you're stuck with nothing to attack in a high-H game, and how severe her constant psychic damage is after the flip.

Curious that you don't read Omnitron-X as being significantly stronger in groups with more heroes, since he's supposed to be powered by empathy....


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

phantaskippy
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Envisioner wrote:

Did your metric measure Miss Information?  She should definitely come out to be harder for higher H values.  Not quite as much of a no-brainer as the Dreamer (where you have to kill Hx2 targets and deal with H-1 card players per turn after losing H cards in play), but still noteworthy for how long you're stuck with nothing to attack in a high-H game, and how severe her constant psychic damage is after the flip.Curious that you don't read Omnitron-X as being significantly stronger in groups with more heroes, since he's supposed to be powered by empathy....

The extra card play and 3 target healing cap naturally causes the overall gain to diminish when the number of heroes increase.

Adept does that a bit too, but since he doesn't add toughness or much damage you need bigger groups to offset that.

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It does look like Miss Information is a bit harder with 4 than with 3. There were not enough games logged of her against 5 players yet to really say, but I bet you will end up being right.

Envisioner
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Unless she gets extra villain plays from something (or Timeshift from Omni-X), Missy at H=5 doesn't flip for a bare minimum of 4 turns, and that's if all she draws are Clues.  Every Diversion makes your life more miserable without getting you any closer to being able to end the game.  And having to leave as many as three of things like Misplaced Memo, Suspicious Malfunction, or Concealed Betrayal in play is even more of a pain than having to leave Citizens alive to un-flip Citizen Dawn.  I really believe that Missy at H = 5 should be at least nearly as hard as the Dreamer or Iron Legacy.


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

dpt
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The entry page for the Google Doc for data entry still talks about the Shattered Timelines release.

lynkfox
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yeah and thats unlikely to be updated anytime soon :P


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lynkfox
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Lynkfox.
http://sentinelswiki.com/ The Sentinels of the Multiverse Wiki

http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!

PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!

j1hopki1
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zelink551,

Is it possible to change the first post so that the new form is on the first post? I haven't followed the full thread so I didn't know there was a new form until I went to the last page.

lynkfox
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Unforutnatly not for me - that person hasn't been on the forum for 10+months :P

 

But I maintain another thread on the General Forum thats been stickied with everythign in it, you might want to take a look at that :)


Lynkfox.
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http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!

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Matchstickman
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I'm sure that a helpful moderator could do the changing for us *blatant hinting*


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I have edited his signature to include the new link :)


Truth is an excuse for a lack of imagination. ~Elim Garak

Envisioner
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Paul wrote:

I have edited his signature to include the new link :)

"Sir, I'm afraid you've gone mad with power...."

"Of course I have!  Have you ever tried going mad without power?  It's boring, nobody listens to you."


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

Lou W
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I wanted to thank everyone who has contributed to the statistical database.  It has been very helpful for my kids and I to help us ensure that when we play a game that the difficulty level is reasonable.  Attached is a set of tables I've made that are derived from the database.  The goal is to enable the players to pick a set of characters and environments that give a reasonable challenge, but prevent them from an unintentally easy or hard game.  These values are of course approximations, but I wanted to keep the math easy and quick.  I hope this is useful for others.

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This is pretty cool! I'm surprised the advanced chairman wasn't a 3

Silverleaf
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You might want to consider that some villains vary in difficulty at different H values. The Dreamer and Miss Information are both easier at H=3 because of having to defeat fewer projections or find fewer clues, etc. 


Just assume I'm always doing that.

Damn it, Ronway!

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Error.

I have detected an error in your submissions form.

You are missing Cosmic Omnitron *beep*

*whirr* *click click*

End of Line


Stop lurking, it makes you look like a villain target
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lynkfox
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Fixed

 

And Alphabatized (mostly - everytime i moved something it started to .. move other options. I was baffled)


Lynkfox.
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arenson9
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Lou W wrote:

I wanted to thank everyone who has contributed to the statistical database.  It has been very helpful for my kids and I to help us ensure that when we play a game that the difficulty level is reasonable.  Attached is a set of tables I've made that are derived from the database.  The goal is to enable the players to pick a set of characters and environments that give a reasonable challenge, but prevent them from an unintentally easy or hard game.  These values are of course approximations, but I wanted to keep the math easy and quick.  I hope this is useful for others.

Fantastic!


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zelink551
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Sorry peeps for being gone so long :( What can I update in this thread to better reflect updates?

XXVZ
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Is this thing still being updated?
Just wondering


"72% of all statistics are made up"
-XXVZ

lynkfox
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The project is still going. If you go to the links in the general forum you can find the location of the stats. Arathorn las updated them on Aug 15th I believe. Yep, this is still ongoing and awesome!


Lynkfox.
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http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!

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XXVZ
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Ok, the last comment was 5 months ago, so I kind of guessed


"72% of all statistics are made up"
-XXVZ

lynkfox
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I jumped the gun a little bit, since we have the names of everyone from WotC.

 

All the environments, heroes, villains, and promo's are up on the Survey now. Playtesters, if you are using the final proofs then by all means, put the data in, but if you arent then don't :P

 

have fun everyone!


Lynkfox.
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http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!

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XXVZ
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For some reason, I always encounter an unexpected error when I try to use Arathorn's version, can anyone help me? 


"72% of all statistics are made up"
-XXVZ

lynkfox
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http://public.tableausoftware.com/profile/arathorn#!/vizhome/Sentinels1/Overview

 

is that the link your using?

 

It works for me, if its not working for you, try clearing cache/cookies/the usual?


Lynkfox.
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http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!

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fabikw
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Wager Master introduces new ways in which the heroes can win/lose the game. Those should be included in the ways that the game can end (they were not there as of last Thursday).

Also, there's no clear option for the heroes winning by just destroying the villain.

lynkfox
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The 'How did the Game End' question is only for special endings. If it ended by normal means (ie, you won by the normal method of defeating that villain) leaving it blank is automatically counted as the normal ways.

 

I think I will just put in 'Wager Master Alternate Win condition' as an option (and a Loss condition option as well) rather than all the possible ways


Lynkfox.
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http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!

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royal
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Wouldn't we also need alternate win/loss conditions for Kaargra Warfang based on the crowd favor?

(There's also a typo in her name on the form, too.)

lynkfox
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Well spotted. Spelling error fixed, and 'The Crowd Turned' as an alternate loss for Kaargra Warfang. Considering the only way you can /win/ against her is to win the Crowd favor it isn't needed as an 'alternate' win victory.


Lynkfox.
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http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!

PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!

royal
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Thanks. I was going entirely off of memory on her win/loss conditions. May not have been the best idea, since she's the one villain I haven't played against yet. smiley

lynkfox
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Minor update - For some reason, I never alphabatized the Environments. That is now the case, as well as the new ones that were announced with OblivAeon being added to the list.

 

As always, if youve access to the playtesting files, don't input games with them, since those files are subject to change :P


Lynkfox.
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http://mindwanderer.net/sotm/ - SoTM Statistics! Updated DAILY!

PM me if you're interested in playing with the Statistics Data!

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