Star Wars: The Force Awakens Spoilers

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morph147
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Star Wars: The Force Awakens Spoilers

There is lightsabers, stormtroopers and a beach ball that is a droid. Oh my!

Lets keep all the spoilers here so those of us who havent gone to see it yet don't have the movie ruined.


My wife thinks Sentinels is ruining our marriage. I think she doesnt know what shes talking about because she wont sit down to play it

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There's some kind of annoying puppet, a child who is secretly a marshmallow, and a warehouse full of glow-in-the-dark clockwork spiders!*

 

 

* Warning - I may not have actually seen this movie.


Just assume I'm always doing that.

Damn it, Ronway!

Mezike
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We'll, I've just got back from seeing it and omfg quite possibly the best Star Wars movie yet. It leans a little heavily on dues ex machina but what the heck, when it tries to thrill it really thrills, when it's supposed to be amusing it's laugh out loud funny, and the spectacle is incredible. And when it gets sad... well, you'll see.

Good call on the spiders though Silverleaf, how did you know?

Really, it's a smashing movie, even without all the weight of the licence. People need to see this so that we can talk about it!

Rabit
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Mezike wrote:

We'll, I've just got back from seeing it and omfg quite possibly the best Star Wars movie yet. It leans a little heavily on dues ex machina but what the heck, when it tries to thrill it really thrills, when it's supposed to be amusing it's laugh out loud funny, and the spectacle is incredible. And when it gets sad... well, you'll see.

Hey! This is a spoiler thread! Where are the spoilers?! frown

 

angel

 

wink


"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal

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BlueHairedMeerkat
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Dobby dies.


“You gotta have blue hair."
-Reckless

Mezike
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BlueHairedMeerkat wrote:

Dobby dies.

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

Mezike
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Some spoilers for you then:

All the talk of Kylo Ren really being Luke are totally off. He is, in fact, Jar Jar Binks.

Also, I was surprised that Chewie turned out to be Lando's half-cousin, and that Rey is actually Princess Leia after undergoing an age reversal treatment.

Somebody important also dies in this one. It's George Lucas' credibility.

 

But seriously, if you want real spoilers I'll give 'em to ya. Much of what happens you have probably already sussed and the big shock moments are fairly well telegraphed tbh.

Rabit
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Oh, I'm serious (and probably shouldn't have included the "wink".on my earlier post) I enjoy spoilers. Let's me focus on and better appreciate the execution when I'm watching the film. 

But I'm weird. cool


"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal

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Mezike
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Alrighty then! Happy to oblige.

For anyone else, seriously don't roll over the text below. If you are going to see the movie I heartily recommend that you go into it cold on any spoilers, really I do. Did I mention before that it's great? It really is.

 

Just don't do it okay? That means you.

 

I'm serious now!

 

Okay, have they all gone now?

Rightio. In no particular order...

Rey - abandoned on a desert world (no, not that one) but with memories of another place that possibly tie her to a member of the rebellion, turns out to be force sensitive. She is set up to be the new Jedi by the end. She ends up with Anakin's original lightsaber (the first one that Luke used and then lost on Cloud City in Empire), which 'calls out' to her while the gang are on Maz Kanata's jungle world.

Maz Kanata - is kind of a budget Yoda who lives in a Jungle version of the Cantina. She gives some wise words to Rey that will strenghten her control of the Force in the same way that Ben's advice comes back to Luke during the trench run.

The First Order - formed out of the remains of the empire. We get to see behind the curtain to a certain extent, which neatly explains some things like how the Empire managed to maintain an army of Stromtroopers long past the sell-by date on the clones, plus a lot of the action is up close in places like docking bays which really strive to show 'how things work'. They are run by crusty old sith-a-like Snoke who looks a bit like a maxi-sized Gollum and only appears as a hologram. Kylo is Darth to his Emperor, Domnhal Gleeson is a very wooden replacement for Tarkin, and Captain Phasma, as far as I could tell, is basically there as a plot device.

Super-weapon - the bad guys have a new planet busting weapon that is built into the side of an actual moon (the snowy place that has cropped up in the trailers), with a gun muzzle about the size of the Death Star. It sucks the energy out of a local sun and shoots it back out to vaporise whole star systems. They use it to take out the remainder of the Republican Senate who have been ruling the galaxy after the Empire went down.

Chewie - does indeed have greying hair.

Finn - is a Stromtrooper out on his first mission but can't follow through on orders when he sees the horror of a massacre of innocents. He decides to run away, rescuing X-Wing flying ace Poe in the process. IMO these guys make a great buddy pairing as good as the Luke/Han angle. He takes a fancy to Rey and they sort-of fall in love in the Star Wars kind of way. He gets to wield the lightsaber for a bit, but it's clear that it isn't his thing.

Kylo Ren - is the son of Han and Leia. He is force-sensitive and trained under Luke but it all went wrong and he went to the dark side under the tutelage of Snoke. He is wavering though, and clearly not in control of his powers and emotions. Some funny reactions to his tantrum scenes.

Luke - ran away after Kylo went bad. The whole movie is effectively the hunt for Luke, with the final piece of a map showing his location being the MacGuffin that everyone is chasing after. We do see him again, but not much, and in a heart-thumping cliffhanger.

Han - eventually has a showdown with his errant son. It's emotional, in a grown-man-blubbering kind of way.

The only original cast member who doesn't come back in this one is Lando, there isn't any mention of him either. Ackbar gets a couple of lines, being his miserable defeatist self as usual. There are lots of call backs to the original trilogy, possibly too many as it begins to feel a bit like a parody after a while, but it's never to the point of being a distraction.

 

If there's anything specific you want to know about, just ask!

 

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Darn it! I read it all! I told myself I wasn't going to! Curse you!

Mezike
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You came into a thread marked Spoilers and ignored all four warnings? That is some commitment to being a 'Truth Seeker' right there!

 

Would it help if I told you that everything above is total lies? surprise

Maybe I should delete that post, just in case anyone else falls into this Sarlacc's Pit of spoilerage. In fact, Rabit why don't you use your mod-power to delete it after you've read it? I am feeling guilty already.

Ronway
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No, I was kidding. I can't resist reading spoilers when they are in an area that I visit often. I haven't gotten around to watching the most recent seasons of The Flash and Arrow but know a lot about what is going on purely because spoilers!

So if I didn't read the Star Wars spoilers here, it would have just been somewhere else.

Rabit
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Many thanks, Mezike!


"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal

Unicode U+24BD gets us Ⓗ. (Thanks, Godai!)

Rabit
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Mezike, I can delete it if you want me to, but -- as you pointed out -- this area is specifically labeled for spoilers and you did a wonderful job of protecting your spoilers. I see no reason to do so, but will if you want.


"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal

Unicode U+24BD gets us Ⓗ. (Thanks, Godai!)

Mezike
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Yeah, you're right, there's enough warnings on there. Anyone who opens the box gets what they deserve!

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I have some thoughts on some things in the movie, some of which are based on things I've heard mentioned elsewhere. Eventually, I'm sure that somebody else will get around to watching this laugh I'm going to color tag these for the time being in case wandering eyes walk in where they shoudln't.

First some fun easter eggs on the cast that I've seen reported!

The Stormtrooper that get's the "These are not the droids you are looking for" treatment is apparently none other than Daniel Craig. It's known that he took some time on set for a cameoduring the filming of Spectre; I'm taking my son to see the film next week so I'll listen carefully to his voice this time.

The Junkyard owner is voiced by Simon Pegg.

One of the X WIng pilots is named after a Beastie Boys album, and has 'Born to Ill' written on his helmet in Klingon or whatever the alien language is that they use, which references both the band as well as Full Metal Jacket.

Snoke = Plageus Snoke is clearly strong in the force if he managed to sway Ren to the dark side. He is also training Ren so must be able to pull off some force tricks at least as good as Luke to have done this. He is also clearly very old, so must have been around since the OT and possibly even the prequel period. Plageus managed to learn how to cheat death which would support this and just look at that big gash on his head. So I think there is a strong and very interesting case to say that Palpatine thought he had killed off Plageus but, like the Black Knight in The Holy Grail, it was just a flesh wound. Recognising that Palpatine had risen in power beyond his control, Plageus remains in the shadows and comes to the fore once the empire topples. It could also explain why Luke went into hiding, perhaps he realised that his Jedi powers alone would not be enough to tackle Plageus, and with the loss of Ren he has been biding his time until Rey cam of age?

Rey was one of Luke's Jedi padawan One of the big questions is the identity of who it was that abandoned Rey on Jakku. The general thought is that she is the daughter of either Leia & Han or Luke. I don't believe that either option is credible; Leia and Han wouldn't have conveniently forgotten about their own daughter, and I just can't see Luke having children and then disappearing as a hermit. There could be an argument for Han abandoning Leia without knowing she was pregnant with Rey but then there would be absolutely no sensible reason for putting her on Jakku. Plus she was old enough at the time to be able to recognise her own mother even after those years apart. I think that the reasoning for these rumours is that every Jedi has to somehow be related to a Skywalker, which doesn't hold any weight. So I think that she was one of Luke's surviving Padawans who he set down in a 'safe' place when he disbanded his Jedi school. This would also explain why Leia sends her to meet Luke, as she would know who Rey was (why on earth wouldn't Leia otherwise go herself? It's her brother who she hasn't seen for several years!)

Luke has been communicating with Rey It's surprising how quickly Rey learns the ways of the force. This supports the Rey as Padawan argument as she may have had some nascent training that is coming back to her. Could Luke also have been doing some Obi-Wan action by sending her "use the force" type comments? Clearly, Luke will have recognised Rey's awakening as much as Snoke and Ren felt it. If he already knows who Rey is (and I think that he does, regardless of the reasons why) then could he also have been mentoring her in some way from afar?

Ren's lack of power/control There's a good reason why he is a bit crap with that lightsaber, which is itself poor in construction when compared to the ones we've seen before (I have seen an interesting suggestion that the two jets on the side could be vents rather than a crossguard, needed as he is unable to properly harness the crystal inside), and that is because he has not completed his training. He might not even be at the level Luke was before he went to Dagobah as he couldn't grab that lightsaber using the force - and that tug of war also supports that Rey has had some form of prior traning, either that or she is going to turn out to be the mostest powerful Jedi evar tm. Moreso, he has big tantrums every time things aren't working out for him, is greedy for power, and can't handle being bested. It suggests that Ren may not be particularly strong with the force and that he is drawn to the dark side in frustration and desperation to wield the kind of power his grandfather once had. This potentially sets things up nicely for the real bad guy to be Snoke.

The Knights of Ren only alluded to briefly, and the big question is whether they existed before Ben turned and accepted him into their ranks with the title of Kyloe Ren, or whether they have been assembled by Ren after turning. I'm leaning toward the former, and there are some interesting musings going around that, should SNoke = Plageus be true, they could be Snokes secret army of Sith apprentices that he has been training during the years of the Empire. Other thoughts are that they were trained as apprentices by either Palpatine or Vader as these Sith Lords always have a secret apprentice stashed away somewhere.

Maz Kanata - who, what, why? Apparently there is quite a bit of footage cut from the scenes with Maz Kanata, as evidenced mainly by imagary and soundbites from the trailers that did not make the theatrical cut. There is more to the story of how she got hold of Lukes lightsaber, with a popular line being that Lando went back to cloud city to retrieve it before somebody gave it to Maz for safekeeping, and she has some form of force sensitive power in being able to sense the feelings of others. I think that she may have had some contact with Luke, possibly he was the one who gave her the saber, but it does seem a little convenient that the gang had to track her down (unless Han knew he had to do this.

Why was R2 powered down for so long? It's not like his battery had run out after all. Here is something significant though; the moment he wakes up coincides with the first appearance of Rey in the rebel base. THis suggests that R2 is aware of who Rey is and further supports the notion that she is connected to Luke in some way. Only bringing Rey and R2 together activates the map that R2 has.

How does Rey know so much about the Millenium Falcon? Pretty simple I think. She's lived in Simon Peggs junkyard for several years, I have no doubt that she has spent plenty of time fixing it for him even though it's not much more than a junk-rider.

What happened on Jakku? Apparently this is covered in the playstation game that is coming out; there is some big battle there about a year after the end of Jedi which trashes the remainder of the Imperial fleet as well as seriously impacting the military power of the rebel alliance. The context of this is that it creates a power vacuum that allows the FIrst Order to rise. My understanding is that there is a power balance between the First Order and the Senate, with star systems under the control of each faction. The remains of the rebel alliance are formed into the Resistance movement which basically does dirty black ops work within First Order space. This highlights the significance of the use of the Starkiller weapon on the base planet of the republic, a move which wipes out their power base and which will now swing power into the favour of the First Order which is set to rise as a new galactic empire. Much of this appears in other media, some of it is only hinted at, so I am just going by what I have found out as it adds some context to the breakneck pace of the film.

I have more things to add but I've written enough for today!

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I just walked out of the movie with my wife. Was it good? Did I like it? Well, when I finish writing a little here I think I'm going to go swoosh a Lego TIE fighter around, and not care that I'm over thirty.

Color-tag commences!

The material of the movie is stuff that the Expanded Universe has dealt with for a long time. Luke tries to train a new generation of Jedi, but one of them turns against him. About the time I left off the EU books, they were making that Jedi who turns dark be Han and Leia's son. I can certainly see why they reset the EU in order to make this movie. I'm not surprised they went in the directions they did, and I'm glad they kept the drama "in the family." I don't think I've ever watched a space battle in a Star Wars movie and not cared how it went because I wanted to see what Han, Chewie, Rey, and Finn were doing, dangit! Even in Return of the Jedi we have Lando in the Falcon and we know that the entire Rebellion hangs in the balance of that battle.

More than anything else, this was Han's movie. By jumping ahead 30 years, we get the opportunity to demonstrate how he has grown, lost, regressed, hid, and finally confronted his demons. Coming out of an original trilogy re-watch right before going to see The Force Awakens gave the new movie a terrific context: in Return of the Jedi, Luke walks straight to his father in the hope that his unconditional belief and love will help turn Vader to the good side - and he succeeds. In this movie, we see how Luke's greatest failure (resulting in the deaths of his other apprentices and, presumably, enabling the rise of the First Order) destroys his confidence to the point that he goes completely into hiding. We then see Han do exactly what Luke attempted at Endor: he doesn't have to reveal himself to Kylo Ren. He chooses to. And he chooses to show the unconditional love of a father for his son. But where Luke succeeded, Han failed - at least for now. I imagine that confrontation on the bridge is going to burn inside Kylo Ren until he either destroys or redeems himself at the conclusion of this new trilogy.

Speaking of which, Kylo Ren is such a wannabe. Vader himself always maintained complete control. When he killed his officers, it was callous. When he lost the Millennium Falcon, he stalked away silenty. But throwing lightsaber tantrums? Whining that he's tempted by the light side? Ren's clearly suffering some kind of inferiority complex and trying to fake it till he makes it. It's telling that even his stormtroopers notice! I agree with Mezike that he doesn't have full control of himself or his powers; his lightsaber is poorly made and he's not able to call on the Force when he wants to in some cases. I bet Rey was able to resist (and dominate!) him in their Force confrontation because while he may have strength, he lacks control and finesse. I imagine he's going to suffer visions of killing his father for some time to come, and I imagine that even though he thinks killing Han was The Thing He Needed To Do To Prove His Strength, it will do the opposite. I hope this trilogy ends with a Force confrontation between Ren and Leia that has him blubbering.

(By the way, slightly disappointed we got no Force use out of Leia here! We all know she can do it.)

So, Big Question: who are Rey's parents? I think there's a strong implication that Luke is one of them. It's possible Han and Leia are, though I don't really think so. Whoever they are, I am pretty sure that Han, Leia, and Kylo Ren know the answer. Ren in particular seemed insistent on finding out "WHAT girl" was in the company of the Resistance fighters.

The scene where Rey and Finn run into the Falcon's corridor shouting "how did you do that?!" at each other certainly presaged Rey's Force use, but it also hints to my mind that Finn is a Force sensistive.

I liked the plethora of aliens in the movie. That's one thing that the original trilogy did well at a few notable points, to suggest a populous galaxy bigger than the one on screen. The Force Awakens pushes that even further, in a way I suspect is CG-enabled, but darn it, it's good CG this time. I loved the scavenger camp, and I loved that they put more alien pilots in Resistance X-Wings. I was on the lookout for familiar species - Rodians, Gran, Quarren, and so forth - but all I spotted were the Mon Calamari commander and Sullustan pilot. (IMDB says they were actually supposed to be Ackbar and Nien Nunb, though I didn't take them that way while watching).

Aaaaah, I think more than anything else what I liked about The Force Awakens is how I'm still thinking about it, and how it fits into the mythology of the original Star Wars trilogy! This is good. This is what Star Wars is.

Now, if you'll excuse me...swooshing time!

Vvvvrvvrvvrrvrrrrrvrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

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I greatly enjoyed this movie. It wasn't a perfect or horribly sophisticated movie, but neither was the original Star Wars. It was exactly what it needed to be and did exactly what it needed to do. I am actually really looking forward to episode 8. I just hope the sequels can keep up the momentum that Force Awakens has started.


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I liked some of the little nods, like Finn rifling through stuff on the Falcon and coming across the training remote, but at the point when some stormtroopers on the Death Star Starkiller tromp by, saying "we think they may be splitting up..." I thought they might be trying a little too hard to provide "cute" references.

Honestly, all the action seemed like a framing excuse for us to find out the key points that happened between "Return of the Jedi" and now, as well as for Han's character and the confrontation with Kylo Ren. I didn't really mind that they were mimicking the story of "Star Wars," and at least in the film it seemed to make sense as they moved from plot point to point.

Edit: I think Phantaskippy just deleted the post I was replying to!

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It'll be frustrating if they keep up that level of callback in the next movie. For this one it was fine, almost a sense of 'history repeating' given the arcs of some of the characters specifically Ren=Darth, Rey=Luke, and the roles of Han/Obi-Wan, Finn (and maybe a bit of Poe?)/Han). I suppose it works as a way of passing the torch, so long as the trilogy goes it's own way now and is independant of paying homage to the OT - no 'Khan' please JJ, I guess is what I'm getting at.

Ren's struggle with, and submission to, the dark side was far more interesting than the crappy descent of Anakin. The moment on the bridge has become the focus of some nerd rage online but I think it was done really well. Yes, you can totally see what is going to happen, but the point is that so can Han. As soon as he sees Ren he get's this look that is a mix of resignation and determination, he is compelled to follow through despite knowing how it's going to work out. As a parent myself I could totally sympathise with everything in that moment, this is his son and there is no way he can walk away even though he understands the futlity of confronting him. My hope as a viewer that it would turn out differently was every bit as futile as the encounter itself.

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Trajector, I totally agree that Ren's issue is an inability to control his power and not so much to do with a lack of power. He can stop a blaster shot in midair so he's clearly a bad ass! I'm wondering why his training hasn't been properly completed though, and how much of his turning to the dark side is self inflicted by his frustration with being unable to progress more rapidly.

A question here is whether Luke told him about Grandpa Anakin or he found out another way (maybe from Snoke, in a Palapatine-style "Oh, your parents and master never told you? Maybe they want to hold you back from achieving your true potential...").

I really hope that Rey is not a Skywalker; although I am aware that there was an EU thing with a brother and sister squaring off it would make no sense whatsoever in the context of this film. Even if Leia decided to hide Rey on Jakku (or ask that someone take her away to a mystery location in case her mind would be read at some point by Ren), they are all incredibly cool about her turning up again. Surely Leia would recognise who she was if she is indeed a relative? Not having an emotional reunion before she flies off to see Luke would be a dick move bigger than either the Luke/Leia reveal or the "what I told you was true, from a certain point of view" retcon in Empire.

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Some more Easter Eggs have come up! During the scene where Rey touches the lightsaber and has a flashback there are a mixture of voices, two of which were provided by Ewan McGregor and Frank Oz. McGregor's voice was also blended with previous lines spoken by Sir Alec Guiness. So Rey has either had a vision of Luke's progress as a Jedi or Obi-Wan and Yoda have somehow reached out to her to encourage her to become a Jedi. A line that McGregor speaks is "Rey, these are your first steps" so it is more likely to be the latter! Apparently Frank Oz recorded some additional lines of dialogue so who knows if we might have some form of re-appearance of Yoda in a later movie, maybe talking with Luke about Rey's training or Ren's descent?

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So I hanv't seen the movie just yet (going this week). But from what I am reading here, the it sounds more or less like the plot of episode IV point for point. I'm sure the movie will be enjoyable and awesome, but a rehashed narrative seems odd?

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Definitely don't let that deter you. It's more of a "passing of the torch" movie than re-living the glory days. It's a way of establishing a new generation of characters, and to do that there will be a lot of setting up similar to IV. I think you'll find that a female protagonist, as well as Finn, are refreshing flavors of compelling heroes. And what's not to love about BB-8? :D


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Trajector
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Yeah, I felt that the plot wasn't really the most relevant thing about this film: It is trying to ti fill in the gap between Return of the Jedi and now, and it's establishing a new set of characters and environments. I'm really looking forward to finding out what new directions Episode VIII will take.

Mezike
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It did feel a little odd the first time I saw it, but it isn't really the central plot that reflects the orignal film as much as the framing of events around it. Saw it again today with my son (not an addict, honestly, we were just concerned about checking out that 12A rating before we took him along!) and I have to say that the callbacks did not bother me at all. The central plot is definitely all about Ren's final descent into darkness, and Han's struggle to live up to being the hero - and not just literally, but also in terms of the pressure a father feels to be a hero for his son. I paid closer attention to this arc today and there is some great acting from Ford; when the conversation first turns to Luke you can see it has some effect on him; even though that relationship started with Luke being a kid and Han being the rogueish hero, by this point he clearly looks to Luke as the true hero. Luke managed to turn his father away from the dark side, but Han failed with his son. There is telling dialogue between Leia and Han where they talk about how they sent Ben to train under Luke when they realised that he was turning away from them, and that Leia thinks this was their mistake. You can also see further resolve in Ford's acting at this point and it's clear that this is the moment where he decides that he's going to somehow find and confront Ren. What I'm taking away from this now is that Ben likely knew who his grandfather was, had some force powers, but was tempestuous, angry, and jealous about being unable to wield the same power as Anakin, so they sent him to Luke and this became the root of a multitude of ills. Rey's dsicovery of her abilities feels more like a set up for the next couple of movies and a side plot in this one.

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I did delete that post, because everytime I use white text it works all wrong and when I try to fix it it gets worse, and I'd rather bail on the conversation than spoil the movie.

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Hey, I can open this thread now.

I have literally just finished watching it, I am still digesting what I have seen and will comment more this evening. I just wanted to clear out this thread from my "unread messages" bit on the forum!

I will say I am quite glad I did not run into any spoilers before viewing it.


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phantaskippy wrote:

I'd rather bail on the conversation than spoil the movie.

You know this is specifically called out as a spoiler thread. I think it's ok to openly talk about it here

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All I'll add to this thread is that I wish it wasn't going to be over a year before the sequel comes out.  This movie gave the right Star Wars feeling.  


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Foote Theory time!

*Obivously this is a spoiler thread, so expect spoilers below*

So the largest question surrounding the films conclusion revolve around Rey, who she is, and who her parents were. Considering that "Force Awakens" as a film is largely a deconstruction and reassembled "A New Hope", it seems plausable that episode VIII could very well follow suit and mimic "Empire Strikes Back" in a significant way. That is to say, the moment where Luke says "Rey...I am your father" feels almost inevitable at this point. FA makes very little attempt about trying to hide this connection either, seeing as how Rey and Luke (even Anakin) grew up without real parents on a hot desert planet, how they all shared an unrivaled connection to the force, all uncannily skilled mechanics/pilots, how the old Skywalker lightsaber calls to Rey and how she has dreams of where Luke has been hiding...the list goes on. This connection, however derived and obvious, could still prove to be a satisfying one, playing the rivaly between cousins (Rey & Ben) each choosing a different path of the force to follow and the consequences those choices have on themselves and eachother, ultimatly ending in the defeat of Snoke and possibly a last minute redemption of Ben in a similar fashion to his idol Darth Vader at the end of "Return of the Jedi". The most classic Star Wars story reframed and repackaged and rhymed in a way that would make Lucas proud.

This sounds like a very probable story to me. A way to retell the original trilogy's story to a new generation with updated characters and effects and cameos enough to make the old heads droll while newer viewers get hooked. But is this same old story the story that should be told? Should Rey be a Skywalker?

Something that has always interested me about the Star Wars franchise is the impetus put on to find "balance in the force". It's not been explored deeply in the films, but it's something the Jedi order and the Sith lords fail to do misserably. One could argue that it's a driving factor of why the Jedi order gets torn down each time it gets built up in the EU (which by and large I understand is no longer cannon). Having nothing but Light Side or Dark side users and teachings is not balance, but both sides continue to strive to rid the other from existence. I bring this point up because with an entry to a new trillogy being "The Force Awakens", I think there is a lot of room to explore this pervasive Star Wars theme in greater detail. And in fact I think FA has laid the ground work to do just that. Consider our main antagonist and the inner struggle of Ben Solo/Kylo Ren. This is a guy who is desperatly trying to harness a power in the dark side that he seems to have little natural knack for. This internal struggle between the dark he desires and the light he can't get rid of will be a driving component of his character arc I feel. He kills his father in the hopes that the act will be the final straw on the camels back, but he still must pound his own wounds violently in order to force that connection to the dark side of the force. A redemption arc seems likely, or if the character can't be redemmed for his actions against his father, then you can be certain that the lightside of himself will show up down the road in some way. There will be a balance here. When he slides to far to one side I believe the scale will tip on the others favor and they have set up Ben's character in such a way that makes this possible.

But this story's new trillogy isn't going to be about Ben Solo, not really anyway. The story is clearly about Rey and what she will bring to the force. I have outlined how I think Kylo Ren's character could play out and how deep and interesting his character is in this film in relation to the balance in the force. I can't rightly believe that Rey's character will not be as deep and nuanced, because if she isn't she will not make a very good foil to constrast against Kylo's character that will likely prove to be a significant payoff further into the series. In other words, Rey will not play out to be just a pure white lightside user working totally within the realm of the "good and just" against the Empire. In the original trilogy movies, Luke had very brief spurts of dark side like tendencies, especially during the final fight with Vader during ROTJ with those screams and the overhead bashing motions while fighting. But for the mostpart, Luke represented all that was good, and was so strong with the light that he was able to redeem his father in the end. But thats because of how the Luke/Vader foil worked. I don't see Rey sharing that same relationship to Kylo considering his character.

So I said I had a theory. I believe Rey will be the one to end up truly bringing a "balance to the force". Anakin the "Chosen One"s Lightsaber does not call out to Rey because she is also a Skywalker, but because the Force reconizes her as the next to fullfil the prophesy after it has "awakened".

A Star Wars character from the EU that embodied balance was Revean from the KotR games, being a master of both the Light and Dark sides of the force. In the games, Revean had his memory wiped in the hopes that he might start fresh and make different choices than the path he was previously on. Rey also demonstrates signs of having her memory wiped. That combined with the fact that she is just so crazy strong in the force and in using advanced force techniques with no training could be a clue pointing to the fact that maybe she had been trained at some point but doesn't remember.

Could Rey have been a prodigy student gone horribly wrong? Maybe she was an original Knight of Ren? A first apprentice to Snoke. Luke, in a desperate attempt, wiped her memory and left her on Jakku with fake memories and pieces of a puzzle in hopes that this crazy talented individual would make different choices later in life that would lead her down the side of light? With Lukes failure with Ben and forcing a side on him, maybe Luke realizes that one must choose for themselves? This could tie into him looking for old Jedi temples, looking for ways to better train students from a time where force users were not as fractured into extreame camps?

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Foote: I love it!

Makes me think: What if Kylo Ren IS the main focus of the new arc? What if his interaction with Rey as a foil causes him not to be redeemed to the Light Side, nor to fully embrace the Dark Side...but to be the first to successfully blend and meld both together into a synthesized, balanced Force? That would be an interesting way to go.

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I really don't want Rey to be a Skywalker. I wouldn't be against it, but I think it's cooler if she's just naturally gifted with the Force, and the Force guided her to people who would know and understand what she was going through and help her achieve her destiny. She could still be a great foil to Kylo Ren. In fact, I think Ren would have more to think about if someone who wasn't a part of the same lineage as him was inheriting what he thought of as his birth right.


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What I done thought, stupid nonsense that popped into my brain as I was watching.

Did I miss a thing? Who was the old guy right at the beginning who was a friend to the resistance? Was he an old character I've just blanked?

So that's Han and Leia's son... who the hell did he get that nose from?

When Ben was walking away from where Han was hidden I really really just wanted Han to shoot him in the back, I was hoping for a Leia wanting him back and Han knowing he couldn't style resolution.

If both Han and Ben know what is about to happen on the bridge (and it seems clear they do), who are they "talking in code" for? Is it us?

Who is Ben named after? Old Ben Kenobi? The assumed name he had that Leia never met him under? I didn't see a particular bond between Han and Ben for him to make the suggestion either.

What was Han's fixation on Chewie's Bow Caster? And in the 30+ years together Han's never tried it out before?

I liked Rey not playing up as the hero when she could have (e.g. the doors), a smart understated hero is something we haven't seen from a major picture in quite a while.

Please don't lessen Rey's accomplishments by saying she is a Skywalker, learning to do what she did because she had to do it to survive is far greater character growth than tapping into "the power of your ancestors".

I actually hope they are setting up a love triangle with Rey, Po and Fin, with Fin torn between Po and Rey. I think the imprinting on the first real person he encountered would be an interesting spin for this indoctrinated soldier.

Disappointed with BB8, it didn't do a lot other than make sight gags.

Ben, I thought his slashing up things had a dual purpose. He was angry, it gave him a greater connection to the dark side when he let loose and showed his lack of control. But I don't think his not being able to call the Lightsaber was to show his control, I think it was about the greater need/awakening Rey had, and that she was accepting/stepping into the hero role.

I like the ideas posited above about R2-D2's awakening, before I had thought it was lazy writing, now I am mildly hopeful it is more. I do however think it is lazy writing that they did not press R2 on the map when it is revealed he had it all along. If R2 had been around all this time and refused to reveal it to honour Luke's wishes that's one thing I can get behind, allowing for scenes later about from characters bemoaning/priasing his hindering of the rebelion/loyalty to Luke but to just go "Nope, going to sleep." is just lazy (as is calling it lazy twice).

So Leia's powers are limited to feeling when her loved ones are in trouble? ... and yet it doesn't help when Ben is falling to the dark side?

I would have much prefered the film ended with the close up of Rey holding out the LightSaber. The sweeping footage circling the characters was more showing off great camera angels than what it could have done for the story.


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I think the bowcaster piece was meant more as a joke than anything.  I also agree that I hope Rey isn't a Skywalker but possibly a child of someone Luke attempted to train. 


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I don't think that Rey could have been previously trained and mind wiped as she's only five or six when she's left with Simon Pegg on Jakku. Someone went To a lot of trouble to leave her there so they were either residents of Jakku who managed to get off world and left her behind, or people who knew she was strong in the force and hid her there. She talks often about 'people' coming back to get her, and never family coming back, so I am personally leaning toward the latter.

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Trajector wrote:

Foote: I love it!

Makes me think: What if Kylo Ren IS the main focus of the new arc? What if his interaction with Rey as a foil causes him not to be redeemed to the Light Side, nor to fully embrace the Dark Side...but to be the first to successfully blend and meld both together into a synthesized, balanced Force? That would be an interesting way to go.

If Kylo was finally able to strike balance of the force, wouldn't that be a sort of redeemtion for him? He would finally have the one thing he desires most of all - Anakins Legacy. 

Another thing is that, if indeed JJ and Co. are planning on making Rey and Kylo character foils, then if Kylo is struggling to fight the innate lightside within him, we will likely see Rey try and fight off a growing inner darkness. This kinda goes back to my current working theory on Rey. She might be the product of large amounts of Dark Side energy, which would nessesitate the hypothesised mind-wipe and bread crumb trail that Luke may very well have done himself in hopes she can forge her own good path away from the sway of early indoctrination from either Jedi or Sith teachings. A story like that obviously draws a lot of paralells to Revan, but I think this new Trilogy is certainly drawing materiel from EU sources to rewrite them (Ben Solo / Jacen Solo) after dismissing them as non-cannon. And not for nothing, but Revan's story is one of the greatest Star Wars stories ever told outside of the original trilogy, so it makes sense to me to use the core of that narrative. This could become even more plausible if we find out that the planet that Rey finds Luke on is Rakkata Prime. Think about that possibility for a moment. 

 

-------

The question that prompted JJ to take the job and helm the next Star Wars trilogy was "Who is Luke Skywalker?"

Moving forward in the new trilogy, Luke's exile will be a topic of much curiosity. Was Luke filled with so much sadness, anger, and fear after the destruction of his new Jedi School that he forced himself into seclusion to stave off the draw of the dark side that courses through his familys blood? Was it that he didn't want to be found because the mere sight of Kylo Ren after what he did would illicit such strong emotions and Luke is afraid he wouldn't be able to control it leading to an inevitable fall to the dark side? I can't see this not being part of it somehow. But what kinda has been overlooked in all the hype over Kylo/Rey/Finn/Poe and others, is that Luke is looking for something, and it has to do with very old Jedi Temples (it might even be the first Jedi Temple, but I need to rewatch the film again). 

What could he possibly be looking for, and why is he looking for it? The new trilogy might be ultimatly about Rey's journey, but Luke is the trilogys McGuffin. The search for Luke was the mcguffin for the whole first film, and I would expect that the thing he is looking for will be the central thing driving the narrative forward to the conclusion of Episode IX.

There is a strong possibility in my mind that it has everything to do with this "awakening" in the Force. Consider the fact that connection to the force was at an all time low during the events of the prequel and original trilogy movies, mostly due to the Sith temples that the old Jedi council was standing on (Palpatine mentions something like this in the prequels and uses it to hide his presense and ultimately do what he did). By the looks of things, the Sith are done. We do not know just yet whether Snoke is indeed going to be revealed as the former Darth Plagueis, but I think the fact that Ben Solo and the military arm behind him bare the surname "Ren". To me this seems like a deliberate departure from Sith teaching and philosophy. Sure, you can argue that Kylo Ren is no where near trained enough to earn the moniker of "Darth" given by the Sith, but Ben taking on the new name of Ren to try and embrace dark side teachings points to a different teaching philosophy all together, something new (or maybe really old, who knows). 

Going back to Luke for a second, how much of the old Jedi order and teachings does he actually know? He really only had time to cover the starting basics with Obi-Wan before he chewed on Vaders lightsaber, and Luke never fully completed training with Yoda before he had to take off. It took old Jedi years upon years to train in the old order where they had archives and multiple masters and a plethora of knowledge to give. Jedi code and teachings were given to Luke in bite sized pieces and chunks, and where I'm sure he understands the fundamentals of it all, if he were to try and rebuild the Jedi I'm positive it wouldnt resemble the old ways at all. It would be in his image and understanding of it. It would be something new.

With the Sith likely extinct and the last remaining Jedi is really Jedi in name only, the Force explodes itself back into prominence since it has wayned for far too long and seeks equilibrium. Luke is without doubt very strong with the force and feels this awakening. This could prompt him into searching for the old Jedi temples, to seek out the knowledge he was never taught, to find a way to teach others without them falling like his father and his newphew have, what his bloodline seems destined to do. 

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According to the Star Wars Databank, Max von Sydow's character at the beginning is Lor San Tekka, an adventurer and explorer who helped Luke recover some old Jedi lore. We haven't met him before this movie.

But at least that description for him explains how Luke might have learned more about the Jedi order.

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I'm going to weigh in with one non-spoilery thought and a second maybe-spoilery thought, after taking the Grasshopper to see it yesterday.

Non-spoilery thought first: maybe it's my background in fencing, maybe it's just knowing that the late, great Bob Anderson couldn't have choreographed the sword fights since he died a couple years ago, but the bladework in the lightsaber duels looked... off. I'm aware that neither Finn nor Rey seems to have held a lightsaber before, and that Ren seems to be severely lacking in discipline, but I still assert those could have been communicated in a way that would have maintained an Andersonesque feel. (For example, look at what Bob had Merry/Pippin/Sam do on top of Weathertop in Fellowship of the Ring. They'd pretty much never held swords either, but what they did feels very different than Finn/Rey's work here.)

The maybe-spoilery thought comes from knowing that when John Williams was scoring the original Star Wars film, he drew deeply on the Wagnerian idea of a leitmotif, giving most/all of the main characters their own musical theme. (Examples: Leia, or the well-known Imperial March for Darth Vader) There's at least one time in this film where Luke's theme can be heard while Rey is the only person visible on the screen. That, more than anything else, suggests to me that Rey is related to the Skywalker/Solos.

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Williams cue definitely links them, but it could be linking them in terms of being the light side hero rather than as blood relatives. Rey will probably end up being Luke's or Leai's daughter, I'm just hoping that she won't as it's a bit cheesy if it does go that way.

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I think she is either Luke's daughter that he didn't know he had, or a student he trained that survived Ren's tantrum of death.  If the second case it wasn't actually her parents dropping her off there.

I think "The Force Awakens" is a bigger deal than just Rey.  I think that Luke is involved, and the temple is a key part of it.  I think he has triggered something, maybe an ancient prophecy or something that is strengthening the force in people.

I really hope Po is using the force, otherwise WTF.  In one short sequence he shoots 9 Tie Fighters and a bunch of storm troopers?  I mean James Bond didn't go that ridiculous.  It was just over the top, and would rate worse than the "Now this is podracing" sequence from Episode I.  I don't believe a single shot missed in that sequence.  They need something to explain that, because it wasn't awesome, it was unrealistic and ridiculous.

Finn has some force sensitivity, he has too as well.  Otherwise he's a bit too "OMG I never used this before, but look what I pulled off."

The light-saber countering weapon the storm trooper pulled out?

No thank you.  It had arcs of electricity on it, so now electrified things can stop lasers?  Things like these issues relegate the movie to the level of Return of the Jedi or maybe a bit below.  If these guys were caught by a battalion of Storm Troopers, they'd just be even more awesome and win.  Because JJ Abrams.

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I agree Finn has force sensitivity. If nothing else, the Millenium Falcon chase couldn't have been pulled off without both him and Rey having Force connections. Also, he's far too good a shot to be a stormtrooper.

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The force awakening within Finn is what I assumed snapped him out of the Stormtropper indoctrination 

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You know, it might be cool to have Force sensitive characters who aren't Jedi. It would be a unique twist on the story to see people who don't all adhere to the same religion use the same power differently.


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phantaskippy wrote:

I really hope Po is using the force, otherwise WTF.  In one short sequence he shoots 9 Tie Fighters and a bunch of storm troopers?  I mean James Bond didn't go that ridiculous.  It was just over the top, and would rate worse than the "Now this is podracing" sequence from Episode I.  I don't believe a single shot missed in that sequence.  They need something to explain that, because it wasn't awesome, it was unrealistic and ridiculous.

Have you ever played X-Wing, TIE-Fighter, or X-Wing Alliance and been in the zone?  It is exactly like Poe did.  You just fly and blast each thing as it comes into sight.  I have done this before, so it's not unrealistic or ridiculous.  And that's what I thought of when I saw Poe's flying.  If it turns out he's Force sensitive, then that's okay, too, by me.


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I like the idea that Luke has unlocked something at the Jedi temple which causes a bunch of people to awaken, it will be good to see if that goes anywhere in the next one.

There are arguments already out there that Han, Lando, and Boba Fett are all force sensitive to a certain degree, even one that Jar Jar uses the force (okay, it's played for laughs, but is quite the compelling argument). Supposedly though, everyody is tanked up on the force and only a few individuals who are very strong in it are capable of developing Jedi powers, so technically Poe is using the force when he pulls off those ridiculous stunts. Poe's assault on the jungle world was a bit too far over the top, even for the Resistances best pilot, but I didn't mind too much as it was good to have this notion that the Resistance are far from being a scrappy 'rag-tag fleet' like the Rebellion used to be. This is a well funded and highly trained force that are far from hiding in the shadows. If anything, the First Order have taken on the role of the Rebellion by being the secretive power that strikes out against the galactic rulers in the senate.

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Donner wrote:

 

phantaskippy wrote:
I really hope Po is using the force, otherwise WTF.  In one short sequence he shoots 9 Tie Fighters and a bunch of storm troopers?  I mean James Bond didn't go that ridiculous.  It was just over the top, and would rate worse than the "Now this is podracing" sequence from Episode I.  I don't believe a single shot missed in that sequence.  They need something to explain that, because it wasn't awesome, it was unrealistic and ridiculous.

 

Have you ever played X-Wing, TIE-Fighter, or X-Wing Alliance and been in the zone?  It is exactly like Poe did.  You just fly and blast each thing as it comes into sight.  I have done this before, so it's not unrealistic or ridiculous.  And that's what I thought of when I saw Poe's flying.  If it turns out he's Force sensitive, then that's okay, too, by me.

Yes, and that is a video game.  I also have played Star Wars Battlefront and taken out multiple Jedi as a stormtrooper.  I try to hold blockbuster films to a higher degree of reality than a video game.

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I see a list forming. Where do board games fit it in?


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Most realism

Books

Plays

Films

Board Games

Video Games

Musicals

Least realism


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They're obviously keeping the identity of Rey's parents under wraps, similar to who Luke's father was. I'm going to venture to guess that they aren't who we'd immediately guess. The obvious candidates are Luke/Mystery Mom and Leia/Han. In short, that she's a Skywalker in some way. However, I'm really hoping it's someone we wouldn't suspect. I'm thinking she's a descendant of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Think about it. It was his voice she heard when experiencing past and future memories during the scene in which she touched Luke/Anakin's lightsaber (correct me if I'm wrong.)

Also, it would form an interesting parallel. Obi-Wan trained Anakin, but failed to curb him from the dark side. But later on, he succeeded with the son, Luke. What if this is a way to allow the student to become master? Luke then went on to train Ben Solo, but failed. However, in episode 8 we are setting up a training scenario with Rey, in which she will surely succeed.

I'm particularly drawn to this theory because it allows Star Wars to become more than just about the Skywalkers, but other factions and families as well.


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While I like the idea it would be hard to imagine unless Rey is much older.  I forget where it's stated but Rey is only supposed to be a teenager and this movie occurs 30 years after Return of the Jedi.   


Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31

 

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