Spite is just the worst

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kreistor
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eugeneruss wrote:
A victim flipping should be a bad event period,

By "victim flipping" do you mean "victim is put into play"?

AlexxKay
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eugeneruss wrote:
His double play is one of his many mechnical problems, it's there to get victims out without costing him mayhem, but it doesn't work well.

Agreed.  This is especially so when a victim comes out on the first card and then IMMEDIATELY gets killed by the second card, without the heroes having had any possibility of saving them.

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AlexxKay wrote:

 

eugeneruss wrote:
His double play is one of his many mechnical problems, it's there to get victims out without costing him mayhem, but it doesn't work well.

 

Agreed.  This is especially so when a victim comes out on the first card and then IMMEDIATELY gets killed by the second card, without the heroes having had any possibility of saving them.

It's especially heart breaking when it's Thiago that gets killed in the first turn. Couldn't even get my free draw.


Good ideas are usually just bad ideas a stubborn person eventually fixed.

eugeneruss
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kreistor wrote:

 

eugeneruss wrote:
A victim flipping should be a bad event period,

 

By "victim flipping" do you mean "victim is put into play"?

 

Yes, as in "you flip over the top card on his deck and it's a victim". It shouldn't make you happy (as a player) to see the serial killer get a victim in his sights :)

Arcanist Lupus
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I just played a game against Spite, where the opening Victim was immediately eaten by On the Prowl, which of course brought out a second victim... which was immediately eaten by a second On the Prowl.  


"Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"

- Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

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Arcanist Lupus wrote:

I just played a game against Spite, where the opening Victim was immediately eaten by On the Prowl, which of course brought out a second victim... which was immediately eaten by a second On the Prowl.  

When H=5, If you can't destroy on the prowl, all the victims die.


Good ideas are usually just bad ideas a stubborn person eventually fixed.

Arcanist Lupus
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Nielzabub wrote:

 

Arcanist Lupus wrote:
I just played a game against Spite, where the opening Victim was immediately eaten by On the Prowl, which of course brought out a second victim... which was immediately eaten by a second On the Prowl.  

 

When H=5, If you can't destroy on the prowl, all the victims die.

You're thinking of Collateral Damage.  On the Prowl is a one-shot.

"Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"

- Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

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Yes, you're correct.


Good ideas are usually just bad ideas a stubborn person eventually fixed.

kreistor
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eugeneruss wrote:
Yes, as in "you flip over the top card on his deck and it's a victim". It shouldn't make you happy (as a player) to see the serial killer get a victim in his sights :)

"Flip" is a technical term in this game. It means taking a card that is in play and turning it to the other side of the card (Incap'ed side, second villain form, or to reveal the back typically). Character cards flip, both villain and hero. Wager Master's villain cards can flip. But putting the top card of a deck in play is not "flipping".

There are two ways a card can come into play from the top of a deck. "Play the top card of a deck" and "Reveal the top card of a deck and put into play". Neither of these are "flipping". I know this is pedantic, but using an already defined term for an action that has another defined term to describe it can lead to confusion. "Flipping a victim" does not happen, ever. Inventing terms is not confusing, but often needs clarification regardless of our intent as writers. I invented the term "Quality" in another thread. I did need to explain my specific invention at one point, since at least one person did not understand why I invented it or what I intended by it. Giving a defined term like "flip" a second definition is a different matter entirely. People try to resolve the known definition with the incorrect usage, which leads to confusion and misunderstanding, and a need for clarification. If you want to invent a term for playing a card off the top of the deck, that's fine, but "Flip" is already used for another purpose by the Official Rules and needs to be avoided.

Almost all Villain cards of any deck coming into play are bad for the heroes, with only the magnitude of the effect defining the concern, so a Victim coming into play is not inherently any worse than a Gene-bound Firesworn or Meteor Swarm. Most Victims, if their Safehouse effect is ignored, are just a "Heal Spite by H" card, which is not tragic in any way. Perhaps the designer intended it to mean something more, or maybe he didn't. Either way, it doesn't matter since Spite's deck is settled and this is all that they do.

While I understand the roleplaying aspect of the game, this is not about a child victim or a serial killer. They are just cards with text-based definitions and rules. If the designer wanted me to treat the Victim cards as important and vital in the way a true potential victim of a real murderer would be by the police forces of our real world, then he failed. The cards are not designed that way, and I will not treat them as if they were. I watch the Victim cards go to trash as they are destroyed and then Spite heals a little while i keep important cards in my hand and HP on my character card, and play the game as designed. We cannot, for certain, say anything other than that was intended by the designer, unless he chooses to inform us directly.

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Thank you for your lengthy essay based on an off the cuff comment with imprecise terminology. I hope it was therapeutic :) I'm sorry you can't find joy in treating objects in a game as something more than just words, though. Creativity and imagination are fine things. I personally enjoy playing the heroes as though they cared about more than numbers, but it doesn't have to bouy everyone's watercraft.

 By the by, like it or not, when you play the top card of a deck, you're flipping it over in the literal sense unless it's someting cute like Ambuscade's traps (and really those have their own mechanic that happens when they're visible rather than played). Sometimes real world terms overlap game terms, we cope as best we may. For example, we "play" Sentinels of the Multiverse in a way not accordance with play or put into play as game terms.

Tongue very much in somewhat bemused cheek.

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Look, man, I love pedantry as much as the next English major, but kreistor - chill. No need to jump down people's throats or nitpick their every word choice. This is a super friendly community. Let's try to keep it that way.


"Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting;
but never hit soft."
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eugeneruss wrote:

Thank you for your lengthy essay based on an off the cuff comment with imprecise terminology. I hope it was therapeutic :) I'm sorry you can't find joy in treating objects in a game as something more than just words, though. Creativity and imagination are fine things. I personally enjoy playing the heroes as though they cared about more than numbers, but it doesn't have to bouy everyone's watercraft.

One of my frustrations about Spite is that I really enjoy the concept of having to sacrifice to rescue innocent victims before they get murdered by a drug-addled psychopath, but the victim cards themselves made it really hard to consider that option, especially given the likelihood that any saved victims will get busted out and eaten after you've sacrificed to save them. I'll never rescue the Sidekick again having seen the benefit I get from keeping him out there in danger, and the Good Samaritan is as good as dead whenever he comes out. The number of times Forced Entry "freed" the victims and then he immediately ate one or more of them has made me cautious about saving them in the first place.

I really enjoy his concept, and when I RP it out it's a lot of fun... but if I really want to win the game, I almost have to play my heroes like sociopaths, and that's not a ton of fun.

That said, the first time we played against Spite, he never got Forced Entry out, and we managed to kill him when he flipped with Safe House damage. That was pretty satisfying, and it hasn't happened since.

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Christopher wrote:

Look, man, I love pedantry as much as the next English major, but kreistor - chill. No need to jump down people's throats or nitpick their every word choice. This is a super friendly community. Let's try to keep it that way.

I actually agree with kreistor that can be confusing to use the word "flip" in the context of a Sentinels game where "flip" has a specific meaning, and that we should try not to do that if it makes our communication less effective.

But there are nice polite ways of saying that, right?


Just assume I'm always doing that.

Damn it, Ronway!

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I played 2 Spite games in the app last night. I won both by ignoring the victims, which didn't feel in the slightest bit heroic. Several times I had to choose which one died and which lived, which again wasn't terribly heroic.

The Potential Sidekick even encourages you (mechanically) to leave him in danger by feeding you cards.

That Safe House must be the worst safe place ever. I really hate making sacrifices to save victims then having Spite just undo all that work in one fell swoop and kill someone that I just saved.

Spite makes me sad, because there's a good deck and an interesting villain in there. He's just not quite where I want him to be.


Just assume I'm always doing that.

Damn it, Ronway!

silopolis
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If there was some way to sacrifice to "shore up" the Safe House or counter Forced Entry... Like a hero takes damage or destroys a card or everyone discards a card, etc., to show that we're protecting the Safe House and not just letting it rot there across the street from Spite's house and next door to the proverbial Lab.

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silopolis wrote:

If there was some way to sacrifice to "shore up" the Safe House or counter Forced Entry... Like a hero takes damage or destroys a card or everyone discards a card, etc., to show that we're protecting the Safe House and not just letting it rot there across the street from Spite's house and next door to the proverbial Lab.

Yeah, so we're actually protecting the Safe House rather than letting Spite just chase everyone out of it whenever he feels like it. I like the idea of being able to choose to sacrifice to keep a victim in there.


Just assume I'm always doing that.

Damn it, Ronway!

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Heroes may protect the safe house by choosing a number of heroes equal to the number of cards undernearth the Safe House. Spite causes each chosen hero H -1 damage and they must discard 2 cards.

Something like that, cleaned up for adequate rules wording? The idea would be all-or-nothing, and you could aim it at heroes with insufficient cards without messing up the defense.

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I just watched last night's Twitch stream from Handelabra. They had the Sidekick out and they were using other victims (usually Good Samaritans) as human shields to keep the sidekick alive as long as possible without saving him. It seemed... antiheroic.

kreistor
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Christopher wrote:

Look, man, I love pedantry as much as the next English major, but kreistor - chill. No need to jump down people's throats or nitpick their every word choice. This is a super friendly community. Let's try to keep it that way.

Communication is a science, not an art. When Analysis indicates that the Predicted outcome did not occur, you rewrite. You know that, better than most here. There is no friendly way of informing someone their predicted outcome failed to be achieved and confusion was the result. That blow always hits the Ego squarely.

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kreistor wrote:
Christopher wrote:
Look, man, I love pedantry as much as the next English major, but kreistor - chill. No need to jump down people's throats or nitpick their every word choice. This is a super friendly community. Let's try to keep it that way.

Communication is a science, not an art. When Analysis indicates that the Predicted outcome did not occur, you rewrite. You know that, better than most here. There is no friendly way of informing someone their predicted outcome failed to be achieved and confusion was the result. That blow always hits the Ego squarely.

I disagree. There's definitely a way to say that without coming across as a dick.


Just assume I'm always doing that.

Damn it, Ronway!

silopolis
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Silverleaf wrote:

 

kreistor wrote:
Christopher wrote:
Look, man, I love pedantry as much as the next English major, but kreistor - chill. No need to jump down people's throats or nitpick their every word choice. This is a super friendly community. Let's try to keep it that way.

 

Communication is a science, not an art. When Analysis indicates that the Predicted outcome did not occur, you rewrite. You know that, better than most here. There is no friendly way of informing someone their predicted outcome failed to be achieved and confusion was the result. That blow always hits the Ego squarely.

I disagree. There's definitely a way to say that without coming across as a dick.

I've been writing and/or editing professionally since 1998. There are ways to correct someone's grammar or usage without insulting them. If there weren't, I'd probably have been working in retail or food service since 1999.

This is a fun gaming forum full of people who like to play with cards that let them pretend to be superheroes. It isn't a Master's thesis defense.

Then again, it isn't really my place to police this (or any other) forum. So, I guess, knock yourself out. :)

EDIT: I quoted Silverleaf to denote agreement, not to respond directly to her. In case that isn't clear. :)

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It's actually easy to come up with tactful ways to explain something like "why flip is confusing in this context." I don't know, maybe being a professional writer has spoiled me or something.

Silverleaf
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Communication is not my strong point (and I have never done anything writing-related for a living), but even I usually manage to correct people in a respectful way. And if I do slip up, I apologise for my behaviour.

This forum's usually a really nice place even when people disagree, and I for one appreciate that. We can totally all get along and be nice, right? :)


Just assume I'm always doing that.

Damn it, Ronway!

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Spite just brings out the worst in people. I blame him!

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eugeneruss wrote:

Spite just brings out the worst in people. I blame him!

Yeah, and the Not-Safe House!


Ra, God of the Fun
Draw, God of the Sun
The Matriarch's Psychic damage is her forcing a gratuitous amount of Snapple facts about birds into a hero's brain.

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I've found a new (to me) way that Spite is awful. 

I've been playing with his variant (testing for the App), and found it generally to be much more fun than his standard version.  But just to prove that he's still the worst, I discovered the following Spite-ful interaction.

If Good Samaritan is out, and you elect to rescue him by playing the top card of the Villain deck -- if that top card turns out to be Lab Raid, then because no card was actually "played", the Good Samaritan is not actually rescued.

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Yuck.  I wouldn't have thought about that interaction but this certainly would be the case since Lab Raid is immediately discarded.  Just another reason the Good Samaritan is the hardest victims to save.   


Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31

 
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The soup is a lie.


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Developer of digital tabletop games & apps like SotM: The Video Game and Bottom of the 9th

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NO SOUP FOR YOU!


Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31

 
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I may be joining this late.  I play on the app, randomly generated games, but usually avoid like the plague any random game with Spite as villain.  I agree with the commentators who say that he's simply frustrating, rather than fun/challenging.  So, whenever I get P.O.ed and really want to whip him, I put together this team, custom-designed to beat Spite:  Dark Visionary, Legacy, Wraith, Tempest.  If I'm feeling really malignant, I add AA, Nightmist, Tachyon, or DW Fixer.

 

Spite's two big weaknesses are (1) that he doesn't have any minons/devices/other targets to help him cause damage, so if he can't cause damage or play cards, he's in trouble; and (2) one of his drugs kills the environment cards that would otherwise be damaging the heroes.  So, the purpose of this team is to (a) manipulate/play Spite's deck like a bass fiddle, all the while (b) preventing him from doing damage, while leisurely setting up damage combos.  

 

First, it sounds awful, but don't worry about the victims.  They are there to distract you, and to make you spend HP and cards that you should be saving.  Besides, with the method below, you'll be able to manipulate Spite's deck enough that he won't be able to pull the Forced Entries/On the Prowls necessary to kill them, and if you're feeling really squeamish, use Suggestion to pull them out of the trash and save them.   

 

(a) Deck Manipulation.  Look at all of the ways you have to manipulate poor Spite:  Dark Visionary's base power, her Precognition and Suggestion cards, Wraith's Infrared Eyepiece(s), Legacy's Take Downs, and Tempest's Into the Stratosphere.  From the very first play, these characters have infinite ways to stop Spite from drawing, push bad cards to the bottom of Spite's deck, and bring back destroyed victims.  Spite's double-draws don't make it a 100% sure proposition, but you can generally avoid the worst cards and put them all on the bottom of his deck, or if that fails, at least know that they're coming and prepare for them.   Once you have out Wraith's Infrared Eyepiece, you can peek at Spite's deck twice every round and send Omicron/Upsilon/Lab Raid/whatever cards to the bottom.  

 

(b) Damage Reduction.  Getting a Twist the Ether on Spite itself just about seals his fate -- reduce *every* damage he deals by 1.  Combine that with Smoke Bombs, Stealth, Throat Jab, Fortitude, Unearthly Resilience, Decoy Projection, (even Telekinetic Cocoon, if you're really desperate), Heroic Interruption, Stun Bolts....Spite isn't hurting any of your team members.  Put a Next Evolution/Lead from the Front on Legacy, and he will eat most of Spite's damage and laugh at it.  Add a Twist the Ether, and now Spite cannot deal a single point of damage to any of your players--he has NO cards that do damage by themselves (they all say "...Spite deals X damage...").  If things turn really dire, send all of the damage you can to Tempest -- his incap power makes all heroes immune to one type of damage.  Use that on whatever form of damage is making it through your Stun Bolts/Smoke Bombs, and the like.  Since he'll be killing most of the environment cards if you let him play the Mind-Phyre drug, the environment won't be hurting the heroes much either.  (In that vein, though, between Grappling Hook, Flash Flood, Dark Visionary's innate power/Prophetic Vision to manipulate the environment deck, her Mass Levitation to stop its damage, and Tempest's Reclaim from the Deep to bring back/spam your anti-environment cards, the environment won't be much of a problem in any event.)

 

Once you've accomplished (a) and (b), which should be reasonably painless with these heroes and their decks, Spite will not be able to (a) pull out his nasty drug cards, or (b) heal (since he can't deal damage), and you can start wiping the floor with him.  Keep having Legacy and DV use their powers every turn to tank Spite's damage and control his deck (and occasionally throw in a bit of damage or buffs themselves), while Wraith and Tempest hit him with buffed Razor Ordinance, Gene-Bound Shackles, Lightning Strikes, Chain Lightnings, Ball Lightnings, Localized Hurricanes.  Getting a Legacy Ring and/or Inspiring Presence only makes things faster.   At this point, you can even let him bring out drugs; since he can't hurt you, he can't heal, and you should have out enough cards to be able to withstand his "return equips/ongoings to your hand" drug.  Just keep beating on him, and you should be able to kill him before he flips.

 

If you're feeling particularly malignant, add in:

Argent Adept -- being able to play 2-3 (or more) extra cards every round lets you find and play your deck manipulation and damage reduction cards that much quicker.  If Spite should happen to get out the "everybody discard 5 cards when they use a power" drug, AA has four Vernal Sonatas in his deck, as well as 4 Arcane Cadences to allow you to get teh him to access them.  

Nightmist -- Enlightenment gives your heroes extra draws to get to their combo cards, Mistbound completely shuts down Spite's deck, the Amulet of the Elder Gods can redirect his damage right back to him, and Nightmist's versatile healing powers give her a variety of ways to heal herself every round and serve as a tank.  Or, put her in MistForm and make her the ultimate tank.  

Tachyon -- adds additional damage elimination/redirection with Hypersonic Assault/Synaptic Interruption, and her ability to auto-churn her own deck means that she'll almost assuredly get to those cards quickly, while she waits to for the chance to use some 15-20-point Lightspeed Barrages.

DW Fixer -- particularly helpful when Spite has managed to get the DR drug (Omicron whatever) into play despite your best-laid plans.  Unlike regular Fixer, he can play Riveting Crane/Alternating Tiger Crane as 3-pt one-shots that should break through Spite's defenses and/or leave him vulnerable to your heroes.  Grease Gun gives all of your heroes a round (more, if Tempest brings it back with Reclaim from the Deep, or Fix himself brings it back with Salvage Yard) of near-total immunity from and the environment.  Driving Mantis makes him a damage soak, particularly in conjunction with Pipe Wrench, Smoke Bombs, and/or Stun Bolts.  If you get a good enough draw, and can get him set up with Grease Monkey Fist/Harmony/Pipe Wrench or Dual Crowbars, he becomes a damage fiend.  The "discard 5 cards when you use a power" drugis just fodder for Salvage Yard -- build up a trash of 10-15 cards, then use Salvage Yard and bring *every* equipment in the trash not just to your deck, but into your hand.  The "return ongoings/equipment to your hand" doesn't matter much to him, since he can do three damage whenever he wants just by burning the card with a Bitter Strike, so build him up with ongoings and make him an early target for that drug while your other heroes play their cards.   (Also, it's just mean; I have to confess to taking great joy at the idea of Mr. Fixer bludgeoning Spite to death with a crowbar.  "Transhuman killer, huh"?" (WHACK!)  "Drug-wracked monstrosity, eh?" (CRUNCH!))

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I have recently come up with my own way to change Spite in such a way that rescuing victims as soon as they come into play actually makes sense. It is a small change with major impact. 

Change the text of 'Forced Entry' to: Put 1 card under the Safe House card into play, chosen randomly. Play the top card of the Villain deck.

By doing this, several things happen:

1. Saving victims (put them undern the safe house) is more useful, as the moment when 2 victims are saved, 1 still remains in the safe house after the Forced Entry. Therefore the players will be more eager to save as many victims as soon as they appear.

2. It gives the correct feeling about Spite and his (its?) victims. When the victims are under the safe house, they are safe(ish). As soon as they are in play, they have a change to be killed of. With the removal of 'destroy a victim', and the addition of  'play the top card' on my proposed Forced Entry, there is still a possibility that the recently forced-entried victim is killed of, rather than it is happening automatically because of the same card that puts them back into play. This extra moment of chance is more working the nerves of the players IMO: Forced Entry is still a aweful card.

3. Spite plays his cards faster. There are 2 Forced Entry's in his deck, meaning he will play max. 2 more cards faster. This helps him to get all his drugs into play faster, something that at least I have the experience which is happening too slow. Most of my games I have 3 or 4 drugs out, waiting for the 5th drug to be played so Spite will flip and I can damage him. 

But generally speaking: I am probably one of the few that does like playing against Spite. His mechanics and game-play means that you know how the fight will progress, something that I find a positve change from all the other villains. If I feel like a difficult, frustrating fight: Spite it is. 

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Ed wrote:

I have recently come up with my own way to change Spite in such a way that rescuing victims as soon as they come into play actually makes sense. It is a small change with major impact. Change the text of 'Forced Entry' to: Put 1 card under the Safe House card into play, chosen randomly. Play the top card of the Villain deck.By doing this, several things happen:1. Saving victims (put them undern the safe house) is more useful, as the moment when 2 victims are saved, 1 still remains in the safe house after the Forced Entry. Therefore the players will be more eager to save as many victims as soon as they appear.2. It gives the correct feeling about Spite and his (its?) victims. When the victims are under the safe house, they are safe(ish). As soon as they are in play, they have a change to be killed of. With the removal of 'destroy a victim', and the addition of  'play the top card' on my proposed Forced Entry, there is still a possibility that the recently forced-entried victim is killed of, rather than it is happening automatically because of the same card that puts them back into play. This extra moment of chance is more working the nerves of the players IMO: Forced Entry is still a aweful card.3. Spite plays his cards faster. There are 2 Forced Entry's in his deck, meaning he will play max. 2 more cards faster. This helps him to get all his drugs into play faster, something that at least I have the experience which is happening too slow. Most of my games I have 3 or 4 drugs out, waiting for the 5th drug to be played so Spite will flip and I can damage him. But generally speaking: I am probably one of the few that does like playing against Spite. His mechanics and game-play means that you know how the fight will progress, something that I find a positve change from all the other villains. If I feel like a difficult, frustrating fight: Spite it is. 

My BIGGEST change would be to change the drug that destroys all environment cards to something else. He makes all environments practically useless. Change it to something like

  "At the end of Spite's turn, destroy AN environment card. if it was a target he regains HP equal to the HP of the environment target. If it isn't a target, then deal each Hero 2 (or something) damage."   --   This makes environments useful, and does something ultimately unique.  

 


I THOUGHT I was the the last Scion but it's actually .....

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Forced Entry is currently a terrible card that makes you unwilling to save victims until right before Spite flips. I like your version of Forced Entry better.

There are a number of Spite mechanics I don't really agree with. The first time I played Spite, I had the impression there were more than 5 Drugs, but as soon as you got a fifth Drug you were stuck with what you had. Having only five Drugs means every flipped Spite game plays the exact same way. Maybe if there were 10 Drugs, you could then have more variable games with Spite, but this means fewer non-Drug cards unless we up the number of cards in Spite's deck beyond 25.

I also dislike Agent of Gloom Spite because his Drug flipping mechanic just doesn't work. With 3 heroes you can never flip a drug back face-down. With 4 heroes you have only one chance to do it (at the end of the second Spite turn), otherwise you can never flip a drug face-down. Maybe that's the intention, but it's still annoying to be presented with text alluding to the possibility of flipping drugs face-down only for it to not be possible beyond sometimes the second turn.

The Burning Stickman
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And only with extremely good luck and/or specific heroes that can play from Spite's deck.

MindWanderer
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Spite's Advanced and Challenge modes are bunk, too.  They just make it harder to fight him during the more interesting part of the battle.  Spite on Ultimate is basically always the same game: tank until he flips, setting up a situation whereby when he does flip, you can reduce the damage he deals to nothing or almost nothing while you whittle away at him.  Whenever I play him on tabletop, as soon as he flips, we play one round just to make sure it plays out as intended, then call ourselves the winners.


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georgeyoung
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Spite' s gameplay is not that bad buddy. I don't think the same.


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