Question: Provocator Tarnis

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MindWanderer
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Question: Provocator Tarnis

Kaargra's "Provocator Tarnis" reads in part, "The first time a villain target other than this card would be dealt damage each turn, redirect that damage to this card." We weren't clear if this meant, "For each villain target other than this card, the first time they would be dealt damage each turn..." or "The first time any villain target other than this card would be dealt damage each turn..." In other words, if two different villains (other than Tarnis) are dealt damage in a turn, is damage only redirected from the first, or from both?


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arenson9
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Hmmm ... not sure, but I think it's for each other villain target.


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phantaskippy
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It redirects for the first damage dealt to each other villain target. 

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Ohh, I think I'd been interpreting it as the first instance of damage aimed at any villain target other than Tarnis...I didn't consider that it might be the first instance of damage aimed at each villain target. Hmm, I shall have to remember this whenever I fight Kaargra again...


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I agree, this one is ambiguous. "The first time a villain target" could be read to mean "any villain target" or "each villain target". Even then "The first time any villain target" could still be interpretted as "each villain target", I think I've played it both ways, whatever works out better for us at the time. Yay (in)consistancy!

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MindWanderer
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Pydro wrote:
Welcome to the forums!
Thanks!  I've been lurking for a while.  These rules discussions are absolutely vital for such a complicated game.

phantaskippy wrote:
It redirects for the first damage dealt to each other villain target. 
This is based on a particular rule or ruling, or just your interpretation of the way it's worded?  I imagine you're probably right, but I want to make sure.

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Ronway
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MindWanderer wrote:

phantaskippy wrote:

It redirects for the first damage dealt to each other villain target. 

 

This is based on a particular rule or ruling, or just your interpretation of the way it's worded?  I imagine you're probably right, but I want to make sure.

It's based on the ruling for cards like Flame Barrier and Combat stance, which uses "a target" and will trigger for each target.

arenson9
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MindWanderer wrote:
phantaskippy wrote:
It redirects for the first damage dealt to each other villain target. 

 

This is based on a particular rule or ruling, or just your interpretation of the way it's worded?  I imagine you're probably right, but I want to make sure.

https://greaterthangames.com/comment/8058#comment-8058


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MindWanderer
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Perfect, thank you both!


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pwatson1974
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A question: Given people are interpreting Tarniss to apply to each villain target, would the same apply to Dark Wartch Setback's Mitigate power? Mitigate is "Next time a hero targert" rather than"the first time, but it would seem to be consistent that it applies to each hero target which makes him much better than people have been thinking.


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phantaskippy
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The reduction is applied to the next damage dealt to a hero target.

Take Backlash Field:

The first time Baron Blade is dealt damage by a target each turn. . .

When Baron Blade is dealt damage by a target, you ask:  "Is this the first time this target has dealt damage to Baron Blade?"  If yes it activates, if no, you don't.

Provocator Tarniss:

The first time a Villain target other than this card is dealt damage each turn. . .

When a Villain target other than Provocator Tarniss is dealt damage you ask: "Is this the first time this target has been dealt damage this turn?"  If yes it activates, if no you don't.

Mitigate:

Reduce the next damage dealt to a hero target by 2.

This wording asks a different question.  When damage is dealt you ask, "Is this damage being dealt to a hero target?"  If it is you reduce the damage and the effect is gone.  After that the effect is not there so it doesn't act again.  If the question never gets asked (immunity, other reduction take care of the damge before you get to Mitigate) then the effect stays active, but once you reduce damage with Mitigate the effect is gone.

Now if we got a wording like:

The first time Baron Blade is dealt damage each turn reduce that damage by 2.

That would not trigger for each target, because the ability only cares about the damage, not the source.

pwatson1974
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That'll trach me to not check the card text before asking questions.


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Bunston
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I understand that the rules as intended make it so Tarnis redirects the first damage dealt to all other villain targets to himself, but just looking at the rules as written I can totally see someone thinking that Tarnis only redirects the first damage dealt to any other villain target, which in my opinion makes more sense based on how the card is worded.

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Bunston wrote:

I understand that the rules as intended make it so Tarnis redirects the first damage dealt to all other villain targets to himself, but just looking at the rules as written I can totally see someone thinking that Tarnis only redirects the first damage dealt to any other villain target, which in my opinion makes more sense based on how the card is worded.

This is also how I've played it.  He only redirects one instance per turn, not one instance per villain target per turn.


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I can see how it would be read that way but Phantaskippy's explanation makes more sense to me.   If it only worked for just the first villain target hit then we would also have to relook at Wrong Time and Place as it has similar wording.


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Donner
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I play them both the same way.


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Donner wrote:

I play them both the same way.

Do you play Flame Barrier the same way too?

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Yes.  And Combat Stance.


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Donner wrote:

Yes.  And Combat Stance.

Fair. I always try and play "the correct" way, but I've been saying for a long time now here and in the PT forums how I just don't understand why the word "each" isn't used in cards like this. It's 3 extra characters that totally clears up the intention of the card

The first time each Villain target other than this card is dealt damage each turn. . .

The first time Baron Blade is dealt damage by each target each turn. . .

Flame barrier should be worded the same way. Why "each" is not present on cards like this is beyond me. I argued for a long time when I first joined the forums that the cards actually don't work how we know they are now intended based on the fact it never had "each". 

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Foote wrote:

The first time each Villain target other than this card is dealt damage each turn. . .

 

The first time Baron Blade is dealt damage by each target each turn. . .

Flame barrier should be worded the same way. Why "each" is not present on cards like this is beyond me. I argued for a long time when I first joined the forums that the cards actually don't work how we know they are now intended based on the fact it never had "each". 

Of course, if they were worded how you want, that could mean instead that the condition only triggers once all targets take/deal damage.  Granted that might imply it would need to happen simultaneously, which is impossible in this game...

aawood
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carnilius wrote:

 

Foote wrote:
The first time each Villain target other than this card is dealt damage each turn. . . 

 

The first time Baron Blade is dealt damage by each target each turn. . .

Flame barrier should be worded the same way. Why "each" is not present on cards like this is beyond me. I argued for a long time when I first joined the forums that the cards actually don't work how we know they are now intended based on the fact it never had "each". 

Of course, if they were worded how you want, that could mean instead that the condition only triggers once all targets take/deal damage.

More than that, the first could mean it triggers when all targets except that one take damage (which is, at least, realistic in some cases), while the second may only apply if every hero hits in every turn.

Academically, I wonder if there is a combination of heros where that is even possible, even for just one round. After all, we're talking about having H heroes, all of whom can do damage themselves, and in some way allow their teammates to also do damage. Perhaps Argent Adept, America's Greatest Legacy and Unity?

Donner
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Argent Adept, Setback, and the Scholar can manage to hit every turn for a round with the right cards.


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Trajector
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So can Fanatic and Guise.

MindWanderer
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Just got Vengeance, which necessitates a followup question.

"Sentinel Tactics" says, "The first time one of the Sentinels deals damage each turn you may use a Power."

To me, that seems very similar to Tarnis, "The first time a villain target other than this card would be dealt damage each turn, redirect that damage to this card."  But if it were ruled the same way, that would be absurdly powerful.  You'd be using three powers a round more often than not: Use a one-shot to have anyone other than the Idealist deal damage, triggering the Idealist, triggering another power, then use a third power as normal.  Many one-shots let two Sentinels deal damage, in which case you'd use all 4 powers.  I seriously doubt that's what's intended.

Thoughts?


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Powerhound_2000
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The wording is different than Tarnis as it says the first time one of the Sentinels deals damage out get the power use and thus it doesn't matter which member did it.  So any additional damage done by a different member wouldn't count in my mind.  Tarnis would get damage from other sources becaus each other villain target could be hit for the first time each turn it doesn't say the first any one villain target other than Tarnis would be dealt damage.  


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