New Season of Doctor Who (Spoilers Abound! Beware!)

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Nielzabub
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You are a good Dalek.


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Silverleaf
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So I semi-watched the last episode - I was playing games on my tablet but mostly listening. And as soon as they said "good Dalek" and "let's go inside it and make it better" I was pretty sure they were going to turn it evil again.

Note to writers: if your plot is obvious enough that even a non-fan who's only partially paying attention figures it out right away, it might be too obvious.


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Silverleaf
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Nielzabub wrote:

You are a good Dalek.

Your mum's a good Dalek.


Just assume I'm always doing that.

Damn it, Ronway!

phantaskippy
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Good episode, but the whole "The Doctor is a better Dalek than the Daleks" angle is a bit played out by now, isn't it?

I did like that the Dalek converted, that was prety cool.

It also annoyed me that the Doctor would ever confuse a Dalek wanting to annihilate its own kind with goodness.

Nielzabub
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Silverleaf wrote:

So I semi-watched the last episode - I was playing games on my tablet but mostly listening. And as soon as they said "good Dalek" and "let's go inside it and make it better" I was pretty sure they were going to turn it evil again.Note to writers: if your plot is obvious enough that even a non-fan who's only partially paying attention figures it out right away, it might be too obvious.

 

This is true, but I liked what they ended up doing with it in the end. I would've been more annoyed if the Dalek had turned out to only be pretending to be good to lure the humans into a false sense of security.


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Not good Dalek, like "you are a great Dalek," but GOOD, like, "you are a Dalek that is doing good."

That's what I got from it. A slight variation of the "we aren't so different" trope.


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phantaskippy
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My problem was that it wasn't a Dalek that was doing good.

Genocide is a bad thing, it doesn't suddenly become a moral plus if you are targetting the enemy for annihilation.

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A friend of mine pointed out that the Doctor has encountered multiple 'good' Daleks before, he helped create some as far back as The Evil of the Daleks (Second Doctor), <sarcasm>huzzah for continuity!</sarcasm>


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Nielzabub
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phantaskippy wrote:

My problem was that it wasn't a Dalek that was doing good.Genocide is a bad thing, it doesn't suddenly become a moral plus if you are targetting the enemy for annihilation.

 

They didn't treat it as a moral plus. The point of the episode was that even though the Doctor succeeded in getting the Dalek to fight for the human race, he hadn't really achieved his objective of turning it good. The Doctor even says this near the end of the episode before the "You are a Good Dalek" line. The humans treat the development as a moral plus simply because they're in a war, and the morality of a Dalek committing genocide on other Daleks isn't something that's bothering them. 


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phantaskippy
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When they believed it might have turned good it obviously hadn't.

It was the birth of a star and realized that the Daleks could not destroy all non-dalek life, that the Daleks would ultimitely lose therefore he was on the losing side.  So he changed sides.

Then in the end the Dalek is converted through what amounts to a religious experience of encountering hatred so pure and beautiful (to he Dalek) that he converted to that hatred, forsaking his native hatred.

There was no real attempt to turn the Dalek good at all.  Morality was never a relevant issue, yet it dominated the context.

Nielzabub
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phantaskippy wrote:

When they believed it might have turned good it obviously hadn't.It was the birth of a star and realized that the Daleks could not destroy all non-dalek life, that the Daleks would ultimitely lose therefore he was on the losing side.  So he changed sides.Then in the end the Dalek is converted through what amounts to a religious experience of encountering hatred so pure and beautiful (to he Dalek) that he converted to that hatred, forsaking his native hatred.There was no real attempt to turn the Dalek good at all.  Morality was never a relevant issue, yet it dominated the context.

 

Oh, I see what you were talking about. There was still an attempt to turn it good. That was the point of the Doctor showing the Dalek his own consciousness. It just didn't turn out the way he wanted. Just because the attempt failed, doesn't mean it wasn't there. Morality is still a relevant issue. The Doctor wanted to make a morally good Dalek but failed because of his own moral failings.


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phantaskippy
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Nielzabub wrote:

 

phantaskippy wrote:
When they believed it might have turned good it obviously hadn't.It was the birth of a star and realized that the Daleks could not destroy all non-dalek life, that the Daleks would ultimitely lose therefore he was on the losing side.  So he changed sides.Then in the end the Dalek is converted through what amounts to a religious experience of encountering hatred so pure and beautiful (to he Dalek) that he converted to that hatred, forsaking his native hatred.There was no real attempt to turn the Dalek good at all.  Morality was never a relevant issue, yet it dominated the context.

 

 Oh, I see what you were talking about. There was still an attempt to turn it good. That was the point of the Doctor showing the Dalek his own consciousness. It just didn't turn out the way he wanted. Just because the attempt failed, doesn't mean it wasn't there. Morality is still a relevant issue. The Doctor wanted to make a morally good Dalek but failed because of his own moral failings.

I may have to rewatch that part, because it came across to me as if they were trying to return it to the state it was when the radiation affected it, and the doctor was sad that it revealed the worst in him, and not the best.  I may have missed something.

Nielzabub
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phantaskippy wrote:

 

Nielzabub wrote:
 phantaskippy wrote:
When they believed it might have turned good it obviously hadn't.It was the birth of a star and realized that the Daleks could not destroy all non-dalek life, that the Daleks would ultimitely lose therefore he was on the losing side.  So he changed sides.Then in the end the Dalek is converted through what amounts to a religious experience of encountering hatred so pure and beautiful (to he Dalek) that he converted to that hatred, forsaking his native hatred.There was no real attempt to turn the Dalek good at all.  Morality was never a relevant issue, yet it dominated the context. 

 

 Oh, I see what you were talking about. There was still an attempt to turn it good. That was the point of the Doctor showing the Dalek his own consciousness. It just didn't turn out the way he wanted. Just because the attempt failed, doesn't mean it wasn't there. Morality is still a relevant issue. The Doctor wanted to make a morally good Dalek but failed because of his own moral failings.

I may have to rewatch that part, because it came across to me as if they were trying to return it to the state it was when the radiation affected it, and the doctor was sad that it revealed the worst in him, and not the best.  I may have missed something.

 

They were definitely trying to return it to the state it was at because of the radiation. The radiation allowed the Dalek to expand its consciousness beyond its normal parameters and gain a respect for life. They wanted the Dalek to remember what it felt and what it learned during that time and keep it. The radiation leak proved that a Dalek was capable of change. It's just really freakin hard. For a Dalek to gain a respect for life without being injected or spliced with magical human DNA is a pretty big breakthrough.


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Silverleaf
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This may be of interest to you guys. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e59guruVL4o


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grysqrl
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Thanks. I was feeling a bit stressed. That helped.

Mezike
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A fun thing on the BBC website mapping out the Doctor's journeys:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20131119-doctor-who-travels-through-time

Ameena
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Oh wow that's really cool :D.


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