More on Completionist Guise

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dpt
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More on Completionist Guise

Here's a situation that came up in a PBF game:

Power: Completionist Guise swapping Guise to regular Guise, this then lets me use Completionist Guise's power again, which I use to swap back to Completetionist Guise, letting me use Regular Guise's power of Tough Choices to hit Progeny for two and make Guise draw a card. Guise no longer looks like a word

Question: is this legit, or does it count as two uses of the same power?


Powerhound_2000
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That would be two uses of the same power to me and thus not a loop you can do. 


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bobbertoriley
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That's.....rather interesting, actually.

Personally, I would lean towards no, based on the prior rulings that any given power can be used once per turn, and the card does say "use the power".

 

bobbertoriley
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Dangit, ninja'd. And double posting because we don't know if editing works and I want the world to know that I was ninja'd.

dpt
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The argument on the other side would be that if a card exits and reenters play, it no longer counts as "the same power". Alternatively, you could argue that Impressive Collection is giving explicit permission to use the power, kind of like Overdrive.

Arcanist Lupus
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I would say that this counts as explicit permission, a la Overdrive and Pride and Prejudice.  The "leaves and reenters play" argument is tricky, because at the time of the second power use, Guise's Character Card is stashed under... actually, should it be stashed under itself?  Regardless, a card under another card has no text, which means Impressive Collection is the only power in the game that allows the use of powers on cards that are not face up in play.  Which is weird.  But I don't think that the character card technically left play, so in theory I would consider it the same object, and thus not usually eligible for a second power use.  It might be informative to see if in the video game Rites of Revival renews a power.  Of course, doing so would require using a power, killing a hero, reviving a hero, and then using another power at the end of the environment turn, but that's manageble, I think.


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Matchstickman
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How do you place Completionist Guise under "This card" when Completionist Guise is "This card"? I say the power fizzles when it tries to do the impossible, that as the placing is impossible the power cannot be used on Completionist Guise.

Mind you this is Guise so sometimes he believes as many as six impossible things before breakfast.


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Arcanist Lupus
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Matchstickman wrote:

Mind you this is Guise so sometimes he believes as many as six impossible things before breakfast.


but does he get jam every other day?

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MigrantP
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Disclaimer: we haven't talked to Christopher about Completionist Guise, so the following is only my opinion as a player.

"Replace a hero character card in play with a variant of that hero." You choose regular Guise, and replace Completionist Guise with that card. The rest of the text on Completionist Guise is no longer in play, and so play proceeds to your Draw a Card phase (or whatever).


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TakeWalker
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I agree with Migrant. Once the card leaves play, you can't resolve the rest of the power text.

That being said, if you could, this would be a situation like what I ran into with the Celestial Tribunal: the card leaves, then reenters play, so the power can be used twice.

dpt
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Migrant's argument seems more convincing than the others. In any case, you're never going to put Completionist Guise under himself, since the replacement happens before the "putting under".

phantaskippy
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Also agree with MigrantP.

MindWanderer
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I would extend MigrantP's interpretation a bit.

  1. Replace a hero character card in play with a variant of that hero.  Clearly, normal Guise comes into play.  The atomic status of Completionist Guise is not well-defined, since we have no examples of card replacement other than cards from a deck being revealed and replaced.  It is either temporarily completely out of play or we immediately attempt to place it under itself.
  2. Put the replaced card safely under this card. This has to fail, since a card cannot be placed under itself.  If Completionist Guise was temporarily out of play, it remains out of play (for two reasons--it was out of play, so the rest of the instructons are aborted, plus it can't be put back into play because there's no legal place to put it), and we have a very clear-cut situation.  If it was never out of play, then it either remains in play (and both cards would be out at once!), or this falls under the rule of cards that attempt to be placed next to/under a nonexistent target being destroyed instead, resulting, as near as I can guess, in two incapacitated Guise cards in play.  Additional shenanigans might ensue if it's legal to have two different copies of the same variant, e.g. normal and foil.  And let's not forget about Fixed Point, which throws a giant monkey wrench into the easier interpretations.
  3. Either use the power on the replaced card (treating any hero names on that card as "Guise") or Guise deals 1 target 2 psychic damage.  Seems clear: if Completionist Guise remains face-up and in play somehow, this happens, and I would agree with the ruling that this counts as using a specific power and beats the once/turn rule on powers.  Otherwise it doesn't.
 

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MigrantP
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That is not an extension of what I said, it's completely different.


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MindWanderer
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Phantaskippy's answer here reminded me of Sky-Scraper, so of course we do have precedent for replacing a card, and a character card in particular.  Her previous form isn't removed from play per se, but it isn't in play anymore.  In which case I agree with MigrantP pretty much completely: Completionist Guise's card is no longer in play, and disappears into the ether.  Its power ceases to function immediately after the first clause, so fortunately you'll never have to worry about trying to place it under itself in "imaginary stasis land."


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TakeWalker
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I guess the salient thing here is you replace Completionist Guise with Guise, and then that's it. CG doesn't go under base Guise, he just goes back in the box.

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Now, here's another question:

Say Completionist Guise has another card under it before he swaps himself out for Santa Guise.

First, what happens to the old card?  Does Santa Guise replace it in-place, so that the old card is now under Santa Guise, or does it go back in the box along with Completionist Guise?  I would think it would stay in place, since other cards attached to a replaced card stay in place (like a Link on Sky-Scraper).

Second, if the old card does stay in play, is it considered face-down for the purpose of Santa Guise's power?  (I would rule no just for sanity's sake--and I believe, though I don't have a source, that cards under other cards are not considered to be either face-up or face-down.)


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Trajector
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Another question: Can Completionist Guise use his power when Fixed Point is in play?

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Yes, for the same reason Sky-Scraper can still change size when Fixed Point is out. 


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vis02124
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So now that I have OblivAeon and the Big Box, I have multiple copies of both base heroes and their variants. What happens if Completionist Guise uses his power on himself, replacing it with anothe copy of Completionist Guise?

 

dpt
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I believe that different artwork on a card doesn't change that it's still the same "card" for purposes of game text; that's the intended way that variants work in OblivAeon mode, for instance.

UXM266
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I agree. Otherwise people with the original Rook City Wraith and Young Legacy variants have an extra hero :)

 

That’s my understanding. Of course, anyone can play however they want. But let’s wait till we have an official ruling first


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We kind of already do, via the Celestial Tribunal in the video game.  If you're playing Freedom Five Wraith (original), you can't call Freedom Five Wraith (foil) as the Representative of Earth, although you can call any other Wraith.


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