Mini-Pack 2 updates to the fireside chats

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MigrantP
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Mini-Pack 2 updates to the fireside chats

Ye olde fireside chat thread has been updated with more rulings & clarifications from our discussions with Christopher. Any questions or concerns, feel free to discuss here!

A few things have already come up in other discussions (e.g. some Unforgiving Wasteland interactions) that we are still working out with Christopher, and those will be resolved for the Shattered Timelines update.


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Powerhound_2000
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I'm confused by the ammo ruling.   Why does the equipment card act different than an Ongoing which wouldn't have a valid target?    For example, I play Wrest the Mind but there are no valid so it is considered to be destroyed.    


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MigrantP
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No, it is not considered to be destroyed. That was already in the rulings, and the ammo ruling was changed to match.


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Ronway
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I have a question too!

Grease Gun can stop all damage dealt by non-hero targets to hero targets even if Mister Fixer is an Isolated Hero, due to it messing with the villain. Gi Bunker's Panzer Buster does not stopp hero damage from being Irreducible on the chosen target if Bunker is Isolated Hero, even though Panzer-Buster is also altering the villain. Is there a difference between the two cards that I am missing?

 

Edit: And another!

Embolden still counts the target it was next to whos turn it is for purposes of determining the End of Turn it will trigger on, implying that it's still next to a target. Wrest the Mind and Twist the Ether are destroyed when the target they are next to leaves play. Why does Wrest the Mind and Twist the Ether count the target they are next to as leaving play but Embolden acknowledges the target it was placed next to?

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It's about damn time. It's only been 2 years since this heavily debated thread was created looking for answers to Isolated Hero.

Edit: Skippy, it looks like we got it pretty close at the end yeah?

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MigrantP wrote:

No, it is not considered to be destroyed. That was already in the rulings, and the ammo ruling was changed to match.

It is still a ruling that seems odd.  Edit: I thought this was being brought up to Christopher again about why it seems inconsistent with How Ongoings with no valid target work.  Does this mean with Fixed Point out if an Ammo card is played with no guns out that the Ammo still goes to the trash?


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Powerhound_2000 wrote:

 

MigrantP wrote:
No, it is not considered to be destroyed. That was already in the rulings, and the ammo ruling was changed to match.

 

It is still a ruling that seems odd.  Edit: I thought this was being brought up to Christopher again about why it seems inconsistent with How Ongoings with no valid target work.  Does this mean with Fixed Point out if an Ammo card is played with no guns out that the Ammo still goes to the trash?

Doesn't seem odd to me.  No valid targets were in play for the ammo, so the card never actually enters play.  Likewise with Ongoings, no valid target, so they never really enter play.  Seems consistent, not inconsistent.

By my accounting, Fixed Point would only affect cards that enter play.  Without a valid target, the ammo never really enters play, so Fixed Point doesn't prevent its destruction.


"Deja-fu? You've heard of that?"
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If you play Wrest the Mind with no valid targets in play that Ongoing is considered to be destroyed before hitting the trash.  That's what happens in the video game and Mega Computer.   If they are both supposed to just hit the trash (Ongoing and Equipment) without being destroyed then I'm ok with it.

Edit: Nevermind on this.   Wrest the Mind did go straight to the trash and I do see an example for Wrest the Mind listed.  It does bring up an issue I found in Mega Computer with Fixed Point out in regards to this though.  


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Hair-trigger Reflexes:

This doesn't stop the card play, correct?  Since the response to the card entering play will still trigger even though the card was destroyed.

Foote wrote:

It's about damn time. It's only been 2 years since this heavily debated thread was created looking for answers to Isolated Hero.Edit: Skippy, it looks like we got it pretty close at the end yeah?

Yes we did.  Fortunately I've also learned the difference between effect and affect since then.  That was painful to read.

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Heh. Unforgiving Wasteland eating the Ennead. Or the Operative.

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Question:

However, Wrest the Mind and Twist the Ether work differently due to their text. Once either hero become isolated, these cards no longer have a valid target next to them and so are destroyed.

So playing Isolated hero on a hero causes all other heroes and their cards to treat the newly isolated hero and all of their cards as if they just left play?

Because the target next to the card didn't leave play, and the destruction clause is only if the target leaves play.

Does this mean they will treat an Isolated hero and their cards as having just entered play when Isolated hero is destroyed?

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Discarding and Scholar's new power:

1.  Is the wording "Player discard" the key, for example Consider the Price of Victory tells players to discard a card, would that be the Scholar discarding and therefore count for Channel?  This seems to be the idea.

2.  Would river of lava count for Channel even though it discards from your deck?  I assume yes here as well.

3.  Does this ruling affect how Police backup is destroyed?  For example if missing resources only discarded the revealed card, would police backup remain in play, since the villain did not make a player discard, but discarded the revealed card herself?  I assume it would count the same cards that Channel would.

 

Assuming I am right in how this works, here are the non-hero cards currently out for SotM whose discard will not count towards Channel.  *=by villain, so relevant to Police Backup.

Already in video game

Realm of Discord:  Ghostly Images

Ruins of Atlantis:  Atlantean Font of Power (I would assume anytime a duplicate limited card would be put into play, the discard by rule would not count toward channel)

*The Ennead:  Isis, Incap

*Miss Information:  Missing Resources

Not in the video game yet

*Ermine:  Incap effect

*Ermine:  Constant Prattle

*Deadline:  Magnetic Pole Shift

Dok'Thorath Capital:  Defiant Looters

Enclave of the Endlings:  Slamara  (same as Font of Power)

Freedom Tower:  Mission Control

-----

Freedom Tower:  Dr. Stinson's lab:  It does not say player discards, but it is optional, and obviously the player is choosing.  The understood "you" should be enough for it to count for Channel.

Hero cards whose discards won't count toward Channel:

Character cards already in video game

America's Greatest Legacy:  Incap #3

Super Scientific Tachyon:  Experiment Power.

Character Cards not in video game yet

Prime Warden Fanatic:  Incap #3

Rogue Agent KNYFE:  Infiltration Power and Incap #3

Omnitron-X:  Timeshift power  (Included even though it doesn't discard at all)

F6 promo Tempest:  Incap #3

Writhe:  Extract Power

Setback:  Incap #3

DW Setback:  Incap #3

Hero Cards not in video game yet

Guise:  Gimmicky Character

The Naturalist:  Hyperactive Senses

Setback:  Fumbling Fool

-----

Argent Adept:  Inventive Preparation:  This one works similarly to Stinson's lab, the player looks at the top card, but the rest of the command says to replace or discard, I assume it is still the player, so it would count.

 

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Most of it boils down to whether it says the player discards the card or not.   Missing Resources has you revealing a card and then each player discarding based on the revealed keywords.   The revealed card does not count as it doesn't list that the player is discarding it but any cards discarded by the player due to that revealed card does.   


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Ronway wrote:

I have a question too!Grease Gun can stop all damage dealt by non-hero targets to hero targets even if Mister Fixer is an Isolated Hero, due to it messing with the villain. Gi Bunker's Panzer Buster does not stopp hero damage from being Irreducible on the chosen target if Bunker is Isolated Hero, even though Panzer-Buster is also altering the villain. Is there a difference between the two cards that I am missing? 

It says in the clarifications: "If GI Bunker uses his innate power on a target, and an Isolated Hero deals damage to that target, the damage is not made irreducible."

If you are seeing otherwise in the video game, please report a bug.


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MigrantP
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phantaskippy wrote:

 Discarding and Scholar's new power:1.  Is the wording "Player discard" the key, for example Consider the Price of Victory tells players to discard a card, would that be the Scholar discarding and therefore count for Channel?  This seems to be the idea.

Whatever the wording is, you have to simply determine agency. If the agent discarding the card is The Scholar's player, then it counts. 

Quote:

2.  Would river of lava count for Channel even though it discards from your deck?  I assume yes here as well.

Yes, discards from deck count, if it's The Scholar doing it.

Quote:
3.  Does this ruling affect how Police backup is destroyed?  For example if missing resources only discarded the revealed card, would police backup remain in play, since the villain did not make a player discard, but discarded the revealed card herself?  I assume it would count the same cards that Channel would.

I don't know, but I'll ask Christopher for next time.


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"Ancient Library: if some situation causes the hero to only draw 1 card, the environment still plays a card."
If a player can't draw *any* cards (say, due to having a 40-card hand), can they still opt to "draw 2 cards" and trigger the Ancient Library?

"The wording on Infection is changed to read: “Play the top card of the villain deck. Then, discard this card.”"
You just mean to replace the "if all Active heroes are Infected" part, right?  This still does its normal Infection?

"An Isolated Hero cannot deal damage or be dealt damage by any other hero."
Do you mean that the IH can't deal damage *to any other hero*, or *at all*? More generally, is the Hero Isolated from the Villain and Environment, or just the other Heroes?

"Cards that say “whenever a card is played” or “whenever a card enters play” do not react to Ambuscade's trap cards being flipped up and shuffled into the deck."
Do they trigger when an Ambuscade trap becomes face up on top of the deck?

"Suppose Explosive Bubbles is at full HP and we have selected the 5 targets with the highest HP. If Explosive Bubbles hits Ra first, and he has Flame Barrier, Ra hits the bubbles back for 2 HP. At this point, Explosive Bubbles will hit 2 more targets. You need to re-evaluate the 2 highest HP targets from the subset of originally chosen highest HP targets."
In this example, Ra would no longer be a viable target for the subsequent EB damage, would he?

"Fanatic must choose a positive integer for Sacrosanct Martyr."
So, not zero?
More generally, is fractional damage ever legal?

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AlexxKay wrote:

"Ancient Library: if some situation causes the hero to only draw 1 card, the environment still plays a card."If a player can't draw *any* cards (say, due to having a 40-card hand), can they still opt to "draw 2 cards" and trigger the Ancient Library?"

You do have to actually draw at least one card.  If Bunker has Turret mode out and tried to draw it wouldn't trigger as Bunker can't draw cards.

AlexxKay wrote:

An Isolated Hero cannot deal damage or be dealt damage by any other hero."Do you mean that the IH can't deal damage *to any other hero*, or *at all*? More generally, is the Hero Isolated from the Villain and Environment, or just the other Heroes?

Just from other heroes.  The villain and environment still have their normal impact.

AlexxKay wrote:

"Suppose Explosive Bubbles is at full HP and we have selected the 5 targets with the highest HP. If Explosive Bubbles hits Ra first, and he has Flame Barrier, Ra hits the bubbles back for 2 HP. At this point, Explosive Bubbles will hit 2 more targets. You need to re-evaluate the 2 highest HP targets from the subset of originally chosen highest HP targets."In this example, Ra would no longer be a viable target for the subsequent EB damage, would he?

No as he was already dealt damage by Explosive Bubbles

AlexxKay wrote:

"Fanatic must choose a positive integer for Sacrosanct Martyr."So, not zero?More generally, is fractional damage ever legal?

zero isn't an option nor is a fractional number.


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MigrantP
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AlexxKay wrote:

"Ancient Library: if some situation causes the hero to only draw 1 card, the environment still plays a card."If a player can't draw *any* cards (say, due to having a 40-card hand), can they still opt to "draw 2 cards" and trigger the Ancient Library?"

No. It says "If they do" and they didn't draw any cards.

Quote:
The wording on Infection is changed to read: “Play the top card of the villain deck. Then, discard this card.”"You just mean to replace the "if all Active heroes are Infected" part, right?  This still does its normal Infection?

The order of those actions written on the original card are simply swapped. This prevents an infinite loop situation. It has no practical difference in 99.99% of situations. You can look at the card in the video game to see the full wording if you like.

Quote:
"An Isolated Hero cannot deal damage or be dealt damage by any other hero."Do you mean that the IH can't deal damage *to any other hero*, or *at all*? More generally, is the Hero Isolated from the Villain and Environment, or just the other Heroes?

There's a missing "to" in there, I'll fix it. It's the former.

Quote:
"Cards that say “whenever a card is played” or “whenever a card enters play” do not react to Ambuscade's trap cards being flipped up and shuffled into the deck."Do they trigger when an Ambuscade trap becomes face up on top of the deck?

Ambuscade’s trap cards can never enter play. So, no.

Quote:
"Suppose Explosive Bubbles is at full HP and we have selected the 5 targets with the highest HP. If Explosive Bubbles hits Ra first, and he has Flame Barrier, Ra hits the bubbles back for 2 HP. At this point, Explosive Bubbles will hit 2 more targets. You need to re-evaluate the 2 highest HP targets from the subset of originally chosen highest HP targets."In this example, Ra would no longer be a viable target for the subsequent EB damage, would he?

No, he's already been hit.

Quote:
"Fanatic must choose a positive integer for Sacrosanct Martyr."So, not zero?More generally, is fractional damage ever legal?

Zero is not a positive integer. Fractional damage is never intended to happen.


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Ronway
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MigrantP wrote:

Ronway wrote:

I have a question too!Grease Gun can stop all damage dealt by non-hero targets to hero targets even if Mister Fixer is an Isolated Hero, due to it messing with the villain. Gi Bunker's Panzer Buster does not stopp hero damage from being Irreducible on the chosen target if Bunker is Isolated Hero, even though Panzer-Buster is also altering the villain. Is there a difference between the two cards that I am missing? 

 

It says in the clarifications: "If GI Bunker uses his innate power on a target, and an Isolated Hero deals damage to that target, the damage is not made irreducible."If you are seeing otherwise in the video game, please report a bug.

Sorry, I worded it funny. Why isn't it irreducible? The villain is the one being affected by the Panzer-Buster. I'm failing to see why Panzer Buster and Grease Gun appear to be working differently.

 

MigrantP wrote:

Quote:

"Fanatic must choose a positive integer for Sacrosanct Martyr."So, not zero?More generally, is fractional damage ever legal?

 

Zero is not a positive integer. Fractional damage is never intended to happen.

If "Up to 5" for Sacrosynct Matyr must be a positive integer, should cards that say "select up to x targets" also have a minumum of 1 target?

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Ronway wrote:
MigrantP wrote:
Ronway wrote:
I have a question too!Grease Gun can stop all damage dealt by non-hero targets to hero targets even if Mister Fixer is an Isolated Hero, due to it messing with the villain. Gi Bunker's Panzer Buster does not stopp hero damage from being Irreducible on the chosen target if Bunker is Isolated Hero, even though Panzer-Buster is also altering the villain. Is there a difference between the two cards that I am missing?  

 

It says in the clarifications: "If GI Bunker uses his innate power on a target, and an Isolated Hero deals damage to that target, the damage is not made irreducible."If you are seeing otherwise in the video game, please report a bug.

Sorry, I worded it funny. Why isn't it irreducible? The villain is the one being affected by the Panzer-Buster. I'm failing to see why Panzer Buster and Grease Gun appear to be working differently. 

It affects the damage dealt to that villain, not the villain itself.  That is what I'm guessing the difference is, because Grease Gun causes non-hero targets to be unable to deal damage, so it directly affects those targets.  Damage dealt by a hero is an effect of a hero card, therefore that damage is not a valid target through Isolated Hero.

That has implication that Chrono-Ranger's "By Any Means" will not increase hero damage through isolation, because while you pick a Villain, it boosts the damage, so the target of its effect would be the damage, not the villain.

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Ronway wrote:

If "Up to 5" for Sacrosynct Matyr must be a positive integer, should cards that say "select up to x targets" also have a minumum of 1 target?

Making "up to" be a minimum of 1 would be a wide-ranging change.  Here is a partial list of cards that might force unwanted effects, in rough order of how likely I think the edge cases are:

Vicious Cyclone

Inferno
The Predator's Eye
Disruptive Flechettes
Ball Lightning

Gaussian Coil Blaster
Fueled Freeze
Construct Cataclysm
Temporal Grenade
RPG Launcher
Consecrated Ground
Crafty Assault
Localized Hurricane
Brainstorm
Innervation Ray
Hippocratic Oath
Robot Reclamation

(For many of these, the edge case is "Miss Information hasn't flipped, so there are no hostile targets on the board at all.")

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Ronway wrote:

If "Up to 5" for Sacrosynct Matyr must be a positive integer, should cards that say "select up to x targets" also have a minumum of 1 target?

 It says on the card Sacrosanct Martyr to deal herself radiant damage which is different wording than selecting X targets.  If you choose zero than Fanatic isn't dealing herself any damage without any damage buffs.  


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Yeah, it isn't optional if she deals damage or not, just how much she deals.

 

Although by the same metric the wording on Vicious Cyclone doesn't say you may discard up to 3 cards, it says to discard up to 3 cards.

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Powerhound_2000 wrote:

 

Ronway wrote:
If "Up to 5" for Sacrosynct Matyr must be a positive integer, should cards that say "select up to x targets" also have a minumum of 1 target?

 

 It says on the card Sacrosanct Martyr to deal herself radiant damage which is different wording than selecting X targets.  If you choose zero than Fanatic isn't dealing herself any damage without any damage buffs.  

This is not the same case as cards that say "if a target is dealt damage", it's selecting the amount of damage. As we can see on Drawn to the Flame, Scorched Earth, and Concussive Clap cards can have 0 as their base damage. This is why I am confused as to why one cards that is "up to" has to be positive intergers and the rest can be anything 0 or higher. If the intention is to have Sacrosanct Matyr to have a different number selection than other cards, then it should have differnt wording to represent it.

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There are a few different cards wording could possibly be clearer on but as read I can see it meaning that you have deal yourself at least one and up to five radiant damage.   


Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31

 
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Question: Do these updates filter into the base Sentinels reprint cards? At some point I may consider buying another base set to make sure I have all the corrections and clarifications in wording.

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Question on the fireside chats. Has spiff been updating his faq with all this. Easier to look up in that format then that laundry list format migrantp has put up right now


My wife thinks Sentinels is ruining our marriage. I think she doesnt know what shes talking about because she wont sit down to play it

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I know Spiff has done some updates in regard to it but I don't think he has gone through it with the latest one.  


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Powerhound_2000 wrote:

I know Spiff has done some updates in regard to it but I don't think he has gone through it with the latest one.  

sounds good. Will have to compare I guess


My wife thinks Sentinels is ruining our marriage. I think she doesnt know what shes talking about because she wont sit down to play it

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phantaskippy wrote:

 

Ronway wrote:
MigrantP wrote:
Ronway wrote:
I have a question too!Grease Gun can stop all damage dealt by non-hero targets to hero targets even if Mister Fixer is an Isolated Hero, due to it messing with the villain. Gi Bunker's Panzer Buster does not stopp hero damage from being Irreducible on the chosen target if Bunker is Isolated Hero, even though Panzer-Buster is also altering the villain. Is there a difference between the two cards that I am missing?   

 

It says in the clarifications: "If GI Bunker uses his innate power on a target, and an Isolated Hero deals damage to that target, the damage is not made irreducible."If you are seeing otherwise in the video game, please report a bug.

Sorry, I worded it funny. Why isn't it irreducible? The villain is the one being affected by the Panzer-Buster. I'm failing to see why Panzer Buster and Grease Gun appear to be working differently. 

It affects the damage dealt to that villain, not the villain itself.  That is what I'm guessing the difference is, because Grease Gun causes non-hero targets to be unable to deal damage, so it directly affects those targets.  Damage dealt by a hero is an effect of a hero card, therefore that damage is not a valid target through Isolated Hero.That has implication that Chrono-Ranger's "By Any Means" will not increase hero damage through isolation, because while you pick a Villain, it boosts the damage, so the target of its effect would be the damage, not the villain.

I see that the powers have be have made this distinction. But given that I find it to be an incredibly arbitrary, nit-picky,and overall STUPID-ASS DISTINCTION, I have elected to IGNORE IT! /Avengers referance


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector