Free speech is a fundamental human right

49 posts / 0 new
Last post
Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013
Free speech is a fundamental human right

I was told not to post this sort of thing in a thread where it was off-topic, so I'm making a thread where it is on-topic, which uninterested parties may easily ignore.  Hopefully that's good enough.  I may not exactly be an Inspiring Presence on these boards, but I still feel that it is important for me to wave my little flag and remind people of what this country stands for.

Free speech is not just a random phrase in the Bill of Rights; it is one of the cornerstones of this entire country.  In pretty much all of global history, I can't think of another nation besides America which has ever claimed that freedom is the most important virtue - above peace, above security, above prosperity or tradition or service to God.  I'm not always entirely inclined to agree; a lot of people use their freedoms in ways I don't approve of, and I fully understand the temptation to use any power one has to try and silence those disagreeable acts.  But I believe there are some things that are worth the risk of suffering for a bit, and so I continue to live in a country which I know is not ever going to entirely align with my beliefs, in the hopes that at least this one country, out of all of them in the world, will always protect my right to disagree with it.  (Well, the "always" might be a bit naive at this point, but I'm still hopeful.)

McBehrer wrote:
Dude, you are like the main reason for pretty much all of the topic shutdowns we've had lately, because pretty much every time you've started unnecessary fights with inflamatory comments and aggressive mannerisms. If you want to discuss their policies on thread locking, take it up with them in a private message; don't make all of us suffer for it too by bringing it up in a thread that it doesn't belong in (i.e. this one).

I wouldn't be beating this particular drum if I didn't think it was important.  Seems to me, a few hundred years ago, there were people who thought it was worth killing their neighbors over.  Nobody seems to have that level of conviction anymore, or if they do, they're considered a psychopath.  I don't believe that violence is ever the answer, but I DO believe that a level of commitment which doesn't SHY AWAY from possible violence is.  I'm trying to find a way of displaying that commitment which doesn't amount to violence, but passive resistance doesn't always work, and it's very easy for tempers to get short and frayed when patient, reasonable action has such a poor track record of getting results.

Every other country in the world seems to eagerly accept the rights of authority to impose order on the populace, suppressing anyone who disturbs the social fabric.  I say, let every other country in the world continue to live that way, and let everyone who wants such a society go live in those countries.  America was founded in the name of liberty; we are a radical state, and we always have been, from the moment we first started dumping tea in a harbor to protest the taxes upon it.  I think that we owe it not only to ourselves, but also to the world to continue upholding that one principle, at any cost, just so that it has a representation in the world community.  Otherwise, where will the rebels and malcontents live, if no country is willing to have them?  I believe we are a haven for free-thinkers, visionaries, and bold adventurers, and that the world needs a few of those. 

We need the ability to say anything it occurs to us to say, and do damn near anything it occurs to us to do.  Without that enterprising, damn-the-torpedoes spirit, our world would be a smaller place; certain frontiers and horizons would be locked away behind people's timidity, their fear of rocking the social boat, and we'd never experience some of the miraculous possibilities that our world holds.  For centuries, America has been the world leader in invention and discovery, and I firmly believe it was our cherishing of freedom, to speak and think and usually to act, above all other virtues which made that possible.  That is why I take the strongest possible objection to any and all restrictions on free expression.  I am perfectly happy to let someone insult me to my face, if there is any chance that their words might somehow be useful to themselves or to me.  And I believe everyone should share my attitude in that regard.  A bruised ego is a small price to pay for a wider worldview, in which all things are possible.

Silverleaf wrote:
If someone causes my thread to get locked, I won't be happy.

Well, I obeyed (very much NOT "respected") the Mod's directions not to continue posting such things in that thread.  While I take strong issue with his tone on the subject, I do agree with the need to keep topics pure, particularly for something that's close to deserving sticky status.  Were I in the Mod's position, I would simply have split and merged topics as necessary in order to get every thread straightened out, but apparently not everyone shares my values in that regard, and well they are the ones getting paid for it, so I can sort of grudgingly accept that they have the right (even if I think they abuse it).  But regardless, if I had posted in the thread, and the thread had been locked, that would NOT have been my fault; it would have been the mods' decision that their rules are more important than either my feelings OR yours, and I don't agree with that at all.  (Naturally I consider my own feelings more important than yours, but I consider my principles more important than both, and might even rank your principles above my feelings, depending on how compatible they are with mine.)

If the mods decide that they have to lock or delete this thread, I won't be happy, but I'll understand.  I've said what I needed to say, and I accept the consequences of that impulse within myself.  I just hope that there is some possibility that my words will touch at least one person who reads this before it disappears, that someone who might have been on the fence about whether freedom is really that important might, just possibly, be swayed by my passionate defense of the subject.

EDIT - Replacing "american" in my original thread title with "human"; I really wasn't trying to be jingoistic.  The national-idealism issues are still there, so I'm not changing the body of the text at all, but hopefully the thread retitling will make it a bit less impolite to overseas readers when the thread appears in their feeds, even if they don't choose to read it.


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

Edited by: Envisioner on Oct 26 2013 - 2:30am
PePe QuiCoSE
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
Joined: Jul 06, 2013
Matchstickman
Matchstickman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 3 days ago
Playtester
Joined: Apr 10, 2012

Hi.

Welcome to the Greater than Games forum. In this particular area of the forum we talk about Greater than Games, if your topic isn't about Greater than Games or one of its products then it goes in the Off Topic forum.

 

Thanks for reading the site rules

3) Do not post things that are likely to start fights about politics, religion, etc.


Stop lurking, it makes you look like a villain target
When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all

Temporary image until an H emoticon is added!

Greywind
Greywind's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 weeks ago
Playtester
Joined: Feb 23, 2013

This is the sandbox of >G. They are not the government.

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

Matchstickman wrote:

Hi.Welcome to the Greater than Games forum. In this particular area of the forum we talk about Greater than Games, if your topic isn't about Greater than Games or one of its products then it goes in the Off Topic forum.

Ah, I didn't realize there was an off-topic forum, or I would have put this there.  Admins, please feel free to move it there.

Quote:
3) Do not post things that are likely to start fights about politics, religion, etc.

I do not think this is a political thread.  Those start arguments because they inherently take sides, and people become militant about which side they are on.  I would characterize my post as being philosophical rather than political; it's about something which is inherently meaningful to the human condition.

EDIT: In particular, I would draw a distinction between starting "fights" and starting "debates".  The latter is my intention; I don't want to hurt any feelings, quite the opposite.  I want to rouse positive feelings; I want people to see that some things are worth taking a stand on, even if they ruffle a few feathers.

EDIT:  I see myself as being a hard-hitting, uncompromising (armchair) journalist.  That was once a respected profession in this country (and probably others), before "political correctness" was a thing.  If I am sometimes overly brusque, it is because I feel embattled by a world that does not share my values, and motivated to try and get the "ship" back on course, whether or not such is actually in my power.


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

McBehrer
McBehrer's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Playtester
Joined: May 15, 2012

You keep referring to me and Silverleaf as mods. You do know we're just forum users, right? I'm not a mod, so quit using my posts as evidence of the actual guys on top being "oppressive." I'm not in a position of authority, and I'm not FORCING you to do anything; I just don't like reading rants on politics on a forum about my favorite card game.


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector

phantaskippy
phantaskippy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 6 days ago
Playtester
Joined: Jan 26, 2013

What exactly are you fighting for?

Nothing McBehrer said in the quote you gave had anything to do with economic opportunity, representative government, conscription into the military, or illegal search and seizure of private property.

So no, 200 years ago no one was killing their neighbors over stuff we have argued about here in this forum.

Also if you are trying to make an argument about freedom of speech on this forum, you are really out of place.

Not a single one of our founding fathers would have said that arrogance, ignorance or rudeness should be protected, so don't invoke them.

This isn't a forum about the rights of mankind, the political state of the world or abuses of authority, in fact this forum covers absolutely Zero topics of protected speech.

If you don't like the rules of this forum, go start your own.

If you don't like the way Greater than Games runs their game, go make your own.

That is freedom of speech, the right to create your own forum of speech, not the right to go turn anyplace you want into your personal soapbox.

 

McBehrer
McBehrer's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Playtester
Joined: May 15, 2012

Also, thanks for using my comment without establishing the context in which it was posted.


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

McBehrer wrote:

You keep referring to me and Silverleaf as mods. You do know we're just forum users, right? I'm not a mod, so quit using my posts as evidence of the actual guys on top being "oppressive."

I was not referring to you in the stuff I said after Silverleaf's quote.  That was about the mod who told me to stop posting in that thread (both in PM to me specifically, and in a general "cease and desist all off-topic posts in this thread" post (accompanied by the first of the cute pictures, which are somehow not off-topic?).

Quote:
I'm not in a position of authority, and I'm not FORCING you to do anything; I just don't like reading rants on politics on a forum about my favorite card game.

Fair enough.  Hence why I created a topic you did not have to read, with a title that I hoped would make the content of it clear enough that uninterested parties would not enter it.  I apologize that I was unsuccessful in preventing you from inconveniencing yourself.


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

byc
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Sep 05, 2013

phantaskippy wrote:

What exactly are you fighting for?

The rights of every man!

Foote
Foote's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 4 weeks ago
PlaytesterHarmony
Joined: Apr 09, 2013

Envisioner wrote:

That is why I take the strongest possible objection to any and all restrictions on free expression. 

You can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theater. Do you take the strongest possible objection to that restriction, even with the obvious safety and concerns? 

There are restrictions placed upon our version of Freedom of Speach for very good reason. When freedom of expression starts immpeeding on other people's pursuit of Life, Liberty and Happiness (in whatever form that may take), then we have lost what makes Free Speach so valuable and important to society. I am all for the "I'll do whatever the hell I want and nuts to those who don't like it" philosophy (I do volunteer work sometimes in Philly for NORML to put that in some perspective), but it must be coupled with the idea of "as long as Its not hurting others".

With all of that said, playing the victim card here is not doing you many favors. After multiple forum members have complained numberous times about your conduct on these forums and this thread blatently breaking the forum rules, you are more than likely brushing up against the Ban-Hammer.

Edit: Byc, you are great. Lets be friends.

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

Playing devil's advocate to myself is another of my skills, so I can see the criticisms of my own position.  I know that I could, even being generous, describe myself as having a serious problem with proportion of response.    Phantaskippy's points are not lost on me either; I'll concede that I overreacted, but the issue affects me deeply.I am the sort of person who would indeed call it "oppression" if I was asked not to discuss certain subjects at the dinner table, because I object to the cook or whoever deciding that their "I want to have a nice dinner" feeling is more important than my right to vent whatever's troubling me.  Maybe that makes me a screwball, unstable, even dangerous, but I don't see anybody trying to appease me or meet me halfway.  Think of Major John Rambo in the first movie of the series...yes, he was completely out of his gourd, but the ultraviolence only happened because other people treated him unreasonably, instead of taking steps to handle the situation delicately and treat this extraordinarily dangerous man with proper care.  (I am of course not dangerous so much as annoying, but the principle is similar; I could stop being annoying, but only if I'm given a reason to think it's worth bothering to try, and not if you take the first misstep on my part as proof that I'm not interested in improving.)

I really have been making an effort, since originally making waves, to tread more carefully.  But it's really, really not easy for me, and it'd be easier for me to avoid having a persecution complex if other people would avoid doing things that I might construe as being persecuted.

Foote wrote:
You can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theater. Do you take the strongest possible objection to that restriction, even with the obvious safety and concerns?

Maybe not the strongest in that case, but I do think that such behavior is at worst annoying and irresponsible, and that if people panic and bolt, the fault for any injuries lies with them for not keeping a cool head, investigating the reported fire to determine whether it actually existed.  I understand, for obvious reasons, that people often react in twitchy emotional ways that make a situation worse.  However, this should not be accepted as fact, and used as the basis for policy decisions; it should be regarded as something in need of change, and that should be the basis of policy decisions, ie "how can we improve the situation"?  Rather than prohibiting such pranks, create a culture in which nobody jumps at them, and not only to you mitigate the potential harm, but conveniently enough, you also deprive the prankster of his motive for doing the thing in the first place.

Quote:
There are restrictions placed upon our version of Freedom of Speach for very good reason. When freedom of expression starts immpeeding on other people's pursuit of Life, Liberty and Happiness (in whatever form that may take), then we have lost what makes Free Speach so valuable and important to society.

I'm not certain I agree with that, but I'll concede that it's something I should try to think over.  I think that it's very easy for someone to use "the pursuit of their own happiness" as a club to beat others into submission; I don't think that should be the be-all and end-all of it.  We should strive for a solution that works for EVERYONE, and that probably means making everyone somewhat unhappy, in order to ensure that no person or group is especially so.  Naturally, every individual would rather that they got to be all happiness all the time, at everyone else's expense, but that can only lead to fundamental inequalities and a "rat race" to be the "top dog".  That's been tried often enough in virtually every previous society; America is still a very young country, I think it should be regarded as an experiment, and allowed to run its course without compromising the underlying purpose.


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

Greywind
Greywind's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 weeks ago
Playtester
Joined: Feb 23, 2013

"Never compromise. Not even in the face of armageddon." ~ Rorshach

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

Greywind wrote:
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of armageddon." ~ Rorshach

Not quite the role model I had in mind, but far from the worst IMO.  Captain America would be a lot closer, though even he takes a few stands I don't quite agree with.  Superman is probably a damn near exact match for my principles, but he has the luxury of being nigh-omnipotent, so he can get away with it a lot more easily than the other two; thusly, I try not to fault them for being less than morally perfect.


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

Spiff
Spiff's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
PlaytesterExceeded ExpectationsUnique Capabilities
Joined: Sep 09, 2011

Jebus, man.  You obviously feel strongly about this stuff, but you should go post it on a libertarian political forum where people may actually want to hear you bloviating, not a card game forum.  Yes, I'm actively oppressing your free speech because it's so wildly inapproprite for this context and you don't seem to have any ability to discern when to shut your hole.  This topic should be shut down as quickly as possible.

Seriously, can we ban this guy or something?  It's just too much.


Spiff's SotM site: www.spiffworld.com/sotm
Spiff's Tactics site: www.spiffworld.com/tactics

Braithwhite
Braithwhite's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 23 min ago
AdminPlaytester
Joined: Sep 03, 2012

Envisioner wrote:

Not quite the role model I had in mind, but far from the worst IMO.  Captain America would be a lot closer, though even he takes a few stands I don't quite agree with.  Superman is probably a damn near exact match for my principles, but he has the luxury of being nigh-omnipotent, so he can get away with it a lot more easily than the other two; thusly, I try not to fault them for being less than morally perfect.

The level of self-involvement evident in your posts is nothing short of astonishing.

I doubt that anyone has all that much issue with freedom of speech.  The comments I've heard (on this post and others) revolve less around your right to say things, and more that you say the worst possible thing, at the worst time. Then proclaim yourself a hero for doing so, and a victim (at the same time) because you are the only one with such vision and clarity of thought in a sea of oppression and tyranny.  

 

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

If large numbers of others share Spiff's attitude, I will try really hard to restrain myself, so as not to make a ban necessary.  (I will be extremely sad that it came to that, but I'll try.)  I do like being able to ask rules questions here, and play in forum games, and possibly post fanfiction if I get that far.

(EDITed to remove a crack which even I realized was over the line, the not-worst part of which Spiff quoted.)


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

Spiff
Spiff's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
PlaytesterExceeded ExpectationsUnique Capabilities
Joined: Sep 09, 2011

just because you don't like what they have to say

You have no idea what's going on, that's clear.


Spiff's SotM site: www.spiffworld.com/sotm
Spiff's Tactics site: www.spiffworld.com/tactics

Foote
Foote's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 4 weeks ago
PlaytesterHarmony
Joined: Apr 09, 2013

Envisioner wrote:

I think that it's very easy for someone to use "the pursuit of their own happiness" as a club to beat others into submission

Think outside of the box of narcissism for a second. It's not always about the pursuit of our own happiness. It is just as much about those around us and enabling them to do what we would want for ourselves. 

The movie theater example is a classic one, but do not take it so literally. The point is not about whether "pranks" should be prohibited or not in society, but rather should health and safety concerns for others warrent certain restrictions on the practical application of our notion of Free Speech. There is a much more nuanced argument there that you are dismissing. 

Envisioner wrote:

Rather than prohibiting such pranks, create a culture in which nobody jumps at them, and not only to you mitigate the potential harm, but conveniently enough, you also deprive the prankster of his motive for doing the thing in the first place.

Lets also create a culture where no one cares when a theif steals their stuff. If no one cares then there must be no problem right? This is you shifting the blame from the origin of the problem to the resulting symptoms of the problem. Thats like blaming the guy who died from a gunshot wound for the gunman going to jail. 

I am not going to dig too deep into this, but your brand of idealism lacks pragmatic application in society. 

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

Braithwhite wrote:
The level of self-involvement evident in your posts is nothing short of astonishing.

That is certainly a fair cop.  But why shouldn't I be self-involved?  I'm the one who has to live with myself.  Other people may have some magical ability to practically read each other's minds, share each other's feelings, tap in to some collective culture, but not me.  I was born a loner, and have only gotten more isolated and embattled with each passing year.

Quote:
The comments I've heard (on this post and others) revolve less around your right to say things, and more that you say the worst possible thing, at the worst time.

Is lack of tact or discretion some sort of crime now?  I don't mind if you guys dislike me and want to avoid interacting with me.  I would love to answer some of the questions flying around on Ask A Forumite, but I realize and accept that nobody is likely to want to include me in their reindeer games anytime soon; that's the price I've paid for taking an unpopular stand.  I'm fine with that; it's fully within acceptible social politics to just not like someone and not talk to them.  What isn't ever acceptible, IMO, is preventing them from speaking, whether by duct-taping their mouth shut or forcing them out of the venue.  As long as it's not your own private residence (over which your domain should be absolute), in any place where people go to congregate, that is a public space, that anyone has the right to be in, and do anything they please there which doesn't amount to criminal activity.

Quote:
Then proclaim yourself a hero for doing so, and a victim (at the same time) because you are the only one with such vision and clarity of thought in a sea of oppression and tyranny.

That, I will admit, is mostly me being a fruit loop with serious problems.  I don't want to be taking it out on other people wherever I go, and I manage (though sometimes just barely) to avoid going off on every random person I pass on the street; the fact I don't quite manage to on the Internet is probably, well, just a function of the Internet.  I'm not an intentional troll, but the climate tends to breed trollish tendencies in those who are even a little susceptible.  I think that's a small price to pay, for a communications tool of such power (what Michiko Kaku called "the beginnings of a {planetary} telephone system").

Spiff wrote:

just because you don't like what they have to say

You have no idea what's going on, that's clear.

Then please explain it to me, since I don't know what else to perceive this as.

Foote wrote:
Lets also create a culture where no one cares when a theif steals their stuff. If no one cares then there must be no problem right?

A less materialistic culture would certainly be more spiritually rewarding.  But again, it would be less likely to contain thieves in the first place.  If you remove the pressure, the choke point of personal and social resources, you remove the motivation to exploit that pressure in damaging ways.

Quote:
I am not going to dig too deep into this, but your brand of idealism lacks pragmatic application in society.

Another extremely fair cop.  I am a romanticist in the classical sense; I draw fanciful pictures, not architectural blueprints.


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

Spiff
Spiff's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
PlaytesterExceeded ExpectationsUnique Capabilities
Joined: Sep 09, 2011

Then please explain it to me, since I don't know what else to perceive this as.

Nope, I'm done.  You haven't shown enough empathy for anyone else on these boards for me to want to take time to help you understand your problem.  My guess is the only reason you haven't been banned already is because the designers are in Germany and they don't have time to hit you with the ban-stick.  Go be righteously underappreciated somewhere else, please.


Spiff's SotM site: www.spiffworld.com/sotm
Spiff's Tactics site: www.spiffworld.com/tactics

Greywind
Greywind's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 weeks ago
Playtester
Joined: Feb 23, 2013

There are laws about "creating a public disturbance".

You want the right to say what you want to be unabridged, but that does not apply to privately held forums such as this board.

The Right to Free Speech does not entitle you to an audience.

Ameena
Ameena's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 hours 39 min ago
Playtester
Joined: Oct 15, 2012

Um...so let me see if I've got this straight (I live over here in England, by the way - hello, yes, other countries exist as well)...so you've come onto a forum dedicated to a card game and been rude to pretty much everyone who talks to you. You seem perfectly happy to stomp in on our conversations and say words to the effect of "Hey, I'm gonna be a total arse because I think everyone should do whatever they want which means it's okay for me to talk to you like crap and make you feel annoyed, because I don't care about anyone's feelings except my own". You even acknowledge that you're being annoying and making basically no effort to be friendly/polite. And yet you express confusion over the fact that no-one wants to talk to you and that you're a "loner".

It sort of sounds like you'd be happier in a place where you were the only person, so you could talk to yourself and be as annoying as you like but nobody would mind because there'd only be you there to risk annoying, and you wouldn't get annoyed because you're the only person who's okay with the fact that you don't mind showing basically no respect for anyone else.

I have a feeling that threads like this are probably gonna be deleted at some point - I feel like they're messing up the general "feel" of the forum because they all seem to end up with insults and stuff being thrown about. And that never used to happen :(.


I am the Wordweaver...

Basically, I like writing stuff ;)

Braithwhite
Braithwhite's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 23 min ago
AdminPlaytester
Joined: Sep 03, 2012

Envisioner wrote:

 But why shouldn't I be self-involved?  I'm the one who has to live with myself.  Other people may have some magical ability to practically read each other's minds, share each other's feelings, tap in to some collective culture, but not me.  I was born a loner, and have only gotten more isolated and embattled with each passing year.

I don't read other people well.  I have trouble with unspoken communication, non-verbal signals, and subtle clues.  I've spent my life slightly on the outside, watching and observing, and trying to develop ways to better understand the people I love and respect.  I do this because while I have trouble understanding the nuances, I want to understand them.   I try to empathize even when I don't understand, and slowly I've gotten better at it.

I say this because I hope that someday you figure this out.  

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

Ameena wrote:
Um...so let me see if I've got this straight (I live over here in England, by the way - hello, yes, other countries exist as well)

I know; the only reason I was so "us=America" in the OP was that >G is headquartered here.  And I was identifying with Legacy in that post (quite possibly an Iron Legacy on the verge of happening, but still).  Wanted to have a picture of Inspiring Presence in the OP but I couldn't find one.

Quote:
And yet you express confusion over the fact that no-one wants to talk to you and that you're a "loner".

No, that doesn't confuse me; I said in my last post that I fully understood and accepted that I was not going to be well-liked around here anytime soon.  My thing has always been that people have a right to be disliked, without instantly being lynched by everyone around them.  I don't even mind people calling me names (for all that the forum terms prohibit it; I have no desire for their protection); I just don't want to be subjected to the digital equivalent of "force", being rendered incapable of being myself.

Quote:
It sort of sounds like you'd be happier in a place where you were the only person

I do spend a great deal of time in such places, and enjoy them immensely.  I first came to this forum so I could ask rules questions, and it might have been best if I had refrained from ever doing anything else.

Quote:
I have a feeling that threads like this are probably gonna be deleted at some point.

I hope not.  Locked perhaps, and allowed to sink into the archives, but not deleted.  And if >G decides they need to put a stop to my speechifying, I hope they will at least do as most forums do, and have an intermediate step - formal warning and/or temporary suspension - rather than a full ban.  That would be highly unusual, to entirely throw out a community member after just one instance of them causing a bit of unrest in the community.

Braithwhite wrote:
I say this because I hope that someday you figure this out.

I hope I do too; I really am trying to, though I have a long track record of miserable failures in the effort, each of which makes me more despondent and frustrated than ever before thereafter.  Very few people even try to extend an olive branch, so thank you for being one of those.  (Foote was another one at one point, though his stance may have shifted in light of these latest developments, I can't really tell from his posts here.)


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

Spiff
Spiff's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
PlaytesterExceeded ExpectationsUnique Capabilities
Joined: Sep 09, 2011

after just one instance of them causing a bit of unrest in the community.

Once again, you have no idea what's going on.  You've been doing this for weeks.


Spiff's SotM site: www.spiffworld.com/sotm
Spiff's Tactics site: www.spiffworld.com/tactics

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

Spiff wrote:
Once again, you have no idea what's going on.  You've been doing this for weeks.

Yes, one single period of time.  Not a very long one by my standards; most of it is still quite fresh in my utterly atrocious memory.


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

Greywind
Greywind's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 weeks ago
Playtester
Joined: Feb 23, 2013

Your standards don't matter. The standards of >G and the environment they want on this board, do.

Spiff
Spiff's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
PlaytesterExceeded ExpectationsUnique Capabilities
Joined: Sep 09, 2011

Also, you can't be a member of the community if all you do is ignore the customs and desires of that community.  You've made it clear on multiple occasions that you have no desire to take the necessary steps that any human animal takes to incorporate themselves into a community of other human animals.  Hence, this community is not particularly interested in you sticking around.

I actually promised someone I'd calm down about this and am embarassed to see I've broken my promise.  This is my last post on the subject.  I think my views have been made clear.


Spiff's SotM site: www.spiffworld.com/sotm
Spiff's Tactics site: www.spiffworld.com/tactics

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

There's a difference between "ignoring" and "being ignorant of".  I have been trying to learn, but I'm not very good at it.  You are now urging that I not be given the time I require to improve.


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

Greywind
Greywind's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 weeks ago
Playtester
Joined: Feb 23, 2013

Okay, suggestion time: before you ever post a response, after you've typed it, read it, read it again. See if there is any possible way that what you have typed could be worded better, less offensively. Edit it. Read it again.

All before you ever hit "post".

Ronway
Ronway's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 29 min ago
PlaytesterTruth Seeker
Joined: Aug 02, 2011

May I suggest everyone stop posting in this topic? It seems to be getting nastier with each post.

Foote
Foote's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 4 weeks ago
PlaytesterHarmony
Joined: Apr 09, 2013

Envisioner wrote:

Quote:

I am not going to dig too deep into this, but your brand of idealism lacks pragmatic application in society.

 

Another extremely fair cop.  I am a romanticist in the classical sense; I draw fanciful pictures, not architectural blueprints.

Then my question is, whats the point? What good is it doing you? From what I can gather, it hasn't been working out so well.

We need to open you up to some different perspectives. Dr. Foote says to go chew on some psilocybin caps, wash down with some orange juice and come back with what you learn.

pwatson1974
pwatson1974's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 hours 57 min ago
Playtester
Joined: Feb 05, 2012

Envisioner,

And yet, after your behaviour has been pointed out as a bother, you go right on doing it. Why should we think you'll change and be more constructive or considerate? Everything you've said suggests the exact opposite. You seem genuinely incapable of understanding why what you're doing is so egregiously offensvie to people, so wy should we believe you'll change? As pointed out, you have managed to single-handeedly cause more frustration in the short period of time you've been here than the rest of us have manged in the years this forum has existed. Do you expect anything other than general approbrium for this behaviour? If so, you will likely be disappointed. The community tries to be welcoming, but even the ncie people here have limits which you are either at or have blithely sailed through.

And once again, you portray that as our fault for not understanding you. Well, to be honest, you're not worth understanding. Or engaging with. Can we please let this thread die, people? Envisioner won't learn anything from us arguing with him. This is teaching gorillas to fly time and we all have much better ways of spending our limited free time.


G+ games: I am part of the 100%

phantaskippy
phantaskippy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 6 days ago
Playtester
Joined: Jan 26, 2013

My family came to this country in 1640, they were Quakers and England stopped killing us, so we came to America where they were still killing Quakers.  My family started all kinds of towns all across Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Iowa, and Oregon.  They weren't explorers, they just left whenever "bad elements" started moving in around them and went where no one else was.

Over time they ran out of places to go, and were forced to settle in and live amongst others.

The point?

This forum is a little village of people with one thing in common, we all love Sentinels of the Multiverse.  That is what we have in common, we are from different lands and faiths, different social standing and political views, but we leave that all behind when we come here.

Here we are able to tune out all the other stuff.

That is the beautiful thing about gaming, and about the internet.  We can come from all kinds of backgrounds and politics and beliefs, but here those don't matter, just the game matters.

The problem is you are a threat to that homogenous little community, not intentionally, but a threat nonetheless.

We don't discuss politics here because we don't want to fight about it.  We don't discuss religion here because we don't want to fight about it.

Sadly there are fewer and fewer forums for those discussions these days, but if we turn this forum into one it will die.

That is why Threads get shut down, and if someone ever got banned, it would be why.  The magic of the internet is you don't run out of land, and you don't have to live here.  I can come and visit this little sanctuary from the rest of the world and only deal with Sentinels.  I have all sorts of other places I can deal with other things, but that isn't here.

We have an obligation to protect this corner of the internet, because it is a good little corner, and we like it.  We don't want that to involve being nasty to people, but trust me, if people think this community is at risk, they will get nasty.

I like to argue, and more than once I've crossed the line where I should have stopped.  More than once I've simply stopped looking at a thread so I won't post on it.  I do this because I've found that for me there is a thin line between the wierd but likable guy who likes to argue, and being an asshole.

What I'm saying is let this forum be what it is.  If you have to step away from certain threads and arguments.  Just stop posting on it, or even reading it if you have to.

We like the Envisioner that plays forum games and asks questions, but there is reason to dislike the Envisioner that brings the ugliness of the outside world into our little paradise.

Greywind
Greywind's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 weeks ago
Playtester
Joined: Feb 23, 2013

 

It's a gibbon. Not a gorilla. And it glides. That's almost flight.

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

Foote wrote:
Then my question is, whats the point? What good is it doing you? From what I can gather, it hasn't been working out so well.

To quote yet another of the heroic figures I identify with, "I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam".  I don't choose to feel the way I feel; my feelings ARE me, whether I want them to be or not.  I would love to be able to rearrange the pieces in my brain to my own satisfaction, but it can't be done, at least not by any mechanism I am comfortable with.

Quote:
Dr. Foote says to go chew on some psilocybin caps

You wouldn't be the first to suggest that hallucinogens could be good for me.  Unfortunately, I have an extremely strong aversion to the idea of any sort of drug (I won't even take vitamins).  This is the main reason I'm not on depression meds, and if I were, perhaps none of this would happen.  Then again, perhaps I would have had a strong side-effects reaction and have jumped off a bridge, or be locked in some cell drooling on myself.  I'm not willing to risk it, for any sort of mind-altering substance.  My mind isn't to be altered, except by my own conscious will (to the limited extent that actually works), or the organic processes of time (which I'm currently attempting to apply, if people like Spiff do not get their way over the cooler heads).

Greywind wrote:
Okay, suggestion time: before you ever post a response, after you've typed it, read it, read it again. See if there is any possible way that what you have typed could be worded better, less offensively. Edit it. Read it again.All before you ever hit "post".

It is extremely difficult for me to exercise that level of patience.  But I will make an attempt.  (I'm pretty sure all that is okay.)


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

Greywind
Greywind's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 3 weeks ago
Playtester
Joined: Feb 23, 2013

Actually, the only mechanism that is required is the desire to change and applying the effort to do just that.

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

phantaskippy wrote:
We like the Envisioner that plays forum games and asks questions, but there is reason to dislike the Envisioner that brings the ugliness of the outside world into our little paradise.

Finally, someone speaks my language.  I understand and accept pretty much everything in the post quoted, but especially this line.  (Interestingly, the guy who runs my weekly job-search club said almost the exact same thing: "the good version of you is the best participant we've ever had, and the bad one is the worst, so how can we make you be the good guy more often"?  We had a really good, long conversation about it, during which no actual conclusion was reached, but it very much ties into where this stage of my personal self-improvement journey is at - that's an extremely corny way to put it, I know, I'm chiding myself for being melodramatic even as I'm doing so.)

I formally apologize for all of my nonsense, and will try really hard to avoid raining on the parade any more.

Greywind wrote:
Actually, the only mechanism that is required is the desire to change and applying the effort to do just that.

I have the desire; the effort is nigh-impossible for me.  I am the sort of guy who would encourage a slave-driver to beat me, in the hopes that he renders me too crippled to work and eventually puts me out of my misery.


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

McBehrer
McBehrer's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Playtester
Joined: May 15, 2012

Quick clarification re: the misinterpretation of "freedom of speech." The first amendment doesn't actually guarantee freedom of speech. It says, "The government shall make NO LAW restricting the freedom of press, nor the free choice of religion, etc." The GOVERNMENT can't inhibit your speech, but that isn't to say that private groups can't. While on the forums, you must abide by the forum's rules, which are very particular about not starting political arguments intentionally, which you seem to make a hobby of. Sure, you can't go to jail for trash-talking the government, which is the intent of the amendment, but that doesn't mean the admins of this forum don't have the ability to stop you from talking about something if they want to. It's a non-existent argument to cling to "freedom of speech I can say whatever I want." The government may not be able to stop you, but they also provide no protection from the other citizens, who in this case just want you to shut up.

(As a side note, I'm fine with this having its own topic, I just speak against it in OTHER topics where it doesn't belong.)


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector

PePe QuiCoSE
Offline
Last seen: 2 weeks 3 days ago
Joined: Jul 06, 2013

Spiff wrote:
Seriously, can we ban this guy or something?
+1 giving a F about this. Yay for the contradictions of free speech!

Ronway wrote:
May I suggest everyone stop posting in this topic? It seems to be getting nastier with each post.
I feel offended, was my first post not nasty enough?
McBehrer
McBehrer's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 days ago
Playtester
Joined: May 15, 2012

I also want to go on record voting AGAINST banning him for now; he seems to be willing to try to change, and as long as he doesn't CONTINUE starting things it should all be good. I know I've gotten enough second chances, so it'd be a bit hypocritical of me to request otherwise.


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

Thank you.  I will endeavor not to make you regret it.  In probably not exactly coincidental news, I'm planning on starting therapy for my anger issues (got the phone call about an hour ago and set it in motion).  This cannot help but be a step in the right direction.


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

EvanDan55
EvanDan55's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 3 weeks ago
Playtester
Joined: Jan 27, 2012

I don't think banning someone is subject to a democratic vote.

You know what I miss? When things were normal.


You're free to do whatever you want to.

Donner
Donner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 1 hour ago
Playtester
Joined: Mar 30, 2013

Envisioner, I have seen some pretty amazing posts from you when you got into a game and played.  (See the Wraith posts for your latest game). And I have seen some horrible posts where you sought to control things.  From my observations, I think controlling less and playing more would really help you out and help improve how others see you.  

This is a place for people to relax.  So take some time and relax here.  And be patient.  Change doesn't happen over night but even a snail eventually reaches its destination as long as it keeps going towards its goal.  Set your goal and give yourself the time to reach it.

Good luck.


"Deja-fu? You've heard of that?"
- Lu Tze, Sweeper, Thief of Time by Terry Pratchett

Silverleaf
Silverleaf's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 7 months ago
PlaytesterBolster Allies
Joined: Apr 10, 2013

evandan55 wrote:

You know what I miss? When things were normal.

Yeah. I'm totally with you. I love this forum, and the people here (or at least the vast majority of the people here) are lovely and helpful and funny and interesting and polite, and willing to apologise and make up on the few occasions where lines are crossed. Between here and the G+ games, I'd like to think I've made some friends. Real, actual friends.

But recently? It's like taking a chocolate-covered cherry from a box and not knowing if it's actually a chocolate-covered cherry or a chocolate-covered cherry-flavoured dog turd.

I'm not quite at the stage of throwing the whole box away, but I've thought about it.


Just assume I'm always doing that.

Damn it, Ronway!

phantaskippy
phantaskippy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 6 days ago
Playtester
Joined: Jan 26, 2013

Just hold on, trials come but we work through them.

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

Events of the day have further shamed and humbled me, and my desire to do better in all areas of life, including this one, has increased.  Alas, I know myself well enough to know that I will inevitably backslide in time, but I will do my best to make full use of this period to build bridges, devise coping strategies, and learn how to keep my next personal shitsorm actually personal.

donner wrote:
Envisioner, I have seen some pretty amazing posts from you when you got into a game and played.  (See the Wraith posts for your latest game). And I have seen some horrible posts where you sought to control things.

I am legitimately only aware of one occasion when I tried to do that, which was in the earlier forum game.  I have already apologized for being too much of a "coach" there; I fully understand my mistake.  But if I have been controlling (as opposed to just generally obnoxious, which I'm good at accidentally doing), I'm afraid I no longer remember the incident.

Quote:
From my observations, I think controlling less and playing more would really help you out and help improve how others see you.  This is a place for people to relax.  So take some time and relax here.  And be patient.

Definitely planning on all of that, and thank you for your kind words, donner.


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

grysqrl
grysqrl's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 hours 26 min ago
ModeratorPlaytester
Joined: Sep 05, 2013

phantaskippy wrote:
Just hold on, trials come but we work through them.

And if you complete the trial, you get the Rod of Anubis.