Does Biomancer have to take damage in order to stop reducing damage?

20 posts / 0 new
Last post
arenson9
arenson9's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 17 min ago
ModeratorPlaytester
Joined: Aug 08, 2011
Does Biomancer have to take damage in order to stop reducing damage?

Biomancer's GAME PLAY includes:

REDUCE THE FIRST DAMAGE DEALT TO BIOMANCER EACH TURN BY 2

In the line above does 'FIRST DAMAGE DEALT' refer to the first time that Biomancer takes damage or to the first time that damage would be dealt to Biomancer?

For example, consider Ra with no cards in play, doing the following:

  • Plays Living Conflagaration, "WHEN THIS CARD ENTERS PLAY, RA DEALS 1 TARGET 2 FIRE DAMAGE"
  • Uses PYRE: "RA DEALS 1 TARGET 2 FIRE DAMAGE"

In the above scenario, how much damage is done to Biomancer? Is it 2 or 4?

Note, for comparison's sake, the card CALIGINOUS FORM from The Sentinels, which uses WOULD BE DEALT DAMAGE EACH TURN.

 


Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)

If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel

Powerhound_2000
Powerhound_2000's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 47 min ago
PlaytesterExceeded Expectations
Joined: Sep 14, 2013

A better comparison is Heavy Plating or Fortitude in this case.  


Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31

 
arenson9
arenson9's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 17 min ago
ModeratorPlaytester
Joined: Aug 08, 2011

Powerhound_2000 wrote:

A better comparison is Heavy Plating or Fortitude in this case.  

Why are these better comparisons?


Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)

If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel

Powerhound_2000
Powerhound_2000's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 47 min ago
PlaytesterExceeded Expectations
Joined: Sep 14, 2013

Because they talk about reducing damage.  Which is what Biomamcer's affect references.  


Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31

 
arenson9
arenson9's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 17 min ago
ModeratorPlaytester
Joined: Aug 08, 2011

Powerhound_2000 wrote:

Because they talk about reducing damage.  Which is what Biomamcer's affect references.  

The full text of Caliginous Form also talks about reducing damage:

THE FIRST TIME WRITHE WOULD BE DEALT DAMAGE EACH TURN, REDUCE THAT DAMAGE BY 2 AND REDIRECT IT TO THE VILLAIN TARGET WITH THE HIGHEST HP.


Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)

If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel

Powerhound_2000
Powerhound_2000's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 47 min ago
PlaytesterExceeded Expectations
Joined: Sep 14, 2013

It could be worded that way for Biomancer but I don't see how that makes his first time DR any clearer for Biomancer.  A better comparison rather than Heavy Plating or Fortitude that I mentioned would be Haka of Shielding.  That DR is used up the first time damage is headed towards Haka regardless of whether it was one damage or if it was more.  


Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31

 
arenson9
arenson9's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 17 min ago
ModeratorPlaytester
Joined: Aug 08, 2011

Powerhound_2000 wrote:

It could be worded that way for Biomancer but I don't see how that makes his first time DR any clearer for Biomancer.  A better comparison rather than Heavy Plating or Fortitude that I mentioned would be Haka of Shielding.  That DR is used up the first time damage is headed towards Haka regardless of whether it was one damage or if it was more.  

 

The (potential) difference is between the words 'FIRST' (Biomancer) and 'NEXT' (HAKA OF SHIELDING).

 


Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)

If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel

Powerhound_2000
Powerhound_2000's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 47 min ago
PlaytesterExceeded Expectations
Joined: Sep 14, 2013

Yes, that is a difference but I would take it similarly in that the first time each turn you deal any amount of damage to Biomancer that DR is used up.   Again, I'm not sure changing it to would be dealt damage, similar to Calignious Form, clears up how Biomancer's DR works.


Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31

 
Powerhound_2000
Powerhound_2000's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 47 min ago
PlaytesterExceeded Expectations
Joined: Sep 14, 2013

I will note an argument in favor of the wording your suggesting is PL602 Compound Omicorn. 


Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31

 
arenson9
arenson9's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 17 min ago
ModeratorPlaytester
Joined: Aug 08, 2011

In my original post I wrote "In the above scenario, how much damage is done to Biomancer? Is it 2 or 4?"

That should have been "... 0 or 2?"


Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)

If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel

Powerhound_2000
Powerhound_2000's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 47 min ago
PlaytesterExceeded Expectations
Joined: Sep 14, 2013

Two damage should be dealt as the first time DR is used up from Living Conflagration coming into play assuming you used that damage to try to hit Biomancer. 


Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31

 
Rabit
Rabit's picture
Offline
Last seen: 18 hours 1 min ago
ModeratorPlaytester
Joined: Aug 08, 2011

Powerhound_2000 wrote:

Two damage should be dealt as the first time DR is used up from Living Conflagration coming into play assuming you used that damage to try to hit Biomancer. 

Agreed. 


"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal

Until we have an H emoticon:

arenson9
arenson9's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 17 min ago
ModeratorPlaytester
Joined: Aug 08, 2011

I agree both that '2' is the best way to understand what's written AND that it seems like the only sensible choice in terms of Biomancer's difficulty. 

I'm cautious about being sure of such things, though, as I've been surely wrong before. In particular, the fact that an instance of 0 HP can't be redirected gives me pause. No, it's not directly relevant to this situation, but maybe obliquely ... something to do with the takehome message in my mind being that if an attempt to deal damage can't get past DR it doesn't 'count' in some way.


Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)

If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel

Powerhound_2000
Powerhound_2000's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 47 min ago
PlaytesterExceeded Expectations
Joined: Sep 14, 2013

If you want full confirmation you are a beta tester for the video game so you could get this clarified there. 


Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and laminate their women! - Guise, Prime Wardens #31

 
arenson9
arenson9's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 17 min ago
ModeratorPlaytester
Joined: Aug 08, 2011

Powerhound_2000 wrote:

If you want full confirmation you are a beta tester for the video game so you could get this clarified there. 

I have! Just not sure that I'm allowed to post anything about it. I tend to err on the side of caution.


Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)

If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel

dpt
dpt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 7 min ago
Playtester
Joined: Aug 06, 2013

Another comparison is Wraith, although again that's "next damage".

As in the other cases, I think that in your example Biomancer would take 2 damage. I also think that if Biomancer were dealt an instance of 0 damage, then an instance of 3 damage, that the DR would not be used up by the 0 damage (since there's no actual damage), and he would take net 1 damage.

Bigbywolfe
Offline
Last seen: 22 hours 55 min ago
Joined: Jan 27, 2017

Coliginous Form uses the "would be dealt" wording because of the Redirection element (most Redirect cards use that wording).
Most Damage Reduction cards do not use the "would be dealt" wording.

I'm having trouble seeing what the confusion is?

EDIT: I missed the "PL602 Compound Omicron" comparison above, which does seem to make the wording on Biomancer inconsistent, but I still have trouble seeing a different way to interpret the card considering how everything else in the game functions.

arenson9
arenson9's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 17 min ago
ModeratorPlaytester
Joined: Aug 08, 2011

I'm pretty well convinced. I took a stab above at explaining why I had (and to a lesser extent still have) reservations. If anyone _really_ wants me to I can try to reword where my reservations came from.


Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)

If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel

arenson9
arenson9's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 17 min ago
ModeratorPlaytester
Joined: Aug 08, 2011

arenson9 wrote:

I'm pretty well convinced. I took a stab above at explaining why I had (and to a lesser extent still have) reservations. If anyone _really_ wants me to I can try to reword where my reservations came from.

Och, I better spell it out while it's still clear in my mind.

Two things are giving me pause:

  1. The inconsistency of wording -- 'would be dealt' is used in other situations, so why not here?
  2. 0 HP damage isn't redirected, so maybe attempted damage that doesn't get over damage redirection doesn't count as actual damage

 

As noted, neither of the above is strong enough for me to think that Biomancer would apply the damage reduction more than once, they are just the thin wedges of doubt that led me to ask the question.

 


Hi. My name's Andy. Feel free to call me Andy, since, ya know, that's my name. (he/him/his)

If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If not now, when? If I am for myself alone, what am I? -- Hillel

jffdougan
Online
Last seen: 10 min 48 sec ago
Joined: Oct 09, 2013

Consistency of wording has never really been a strong point of SotM until right about when Shattered Timelines, maybe Vengeance, game into being. Granted, Biomancer is later on, but....