Avengers Endgame Discussion (SPOILERS AHEAD!)

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Phantom5613
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Avengers Endgame Discussion (SPOILERS AHEAD!)

Didn't see another thread for it, so figured I start one up here.

Well, here we are. Over ten years of movies and plotlines, all culminating into this one massive movie. It's been one hell of a ride for sure.

What were some of you guys' favorite things to happen in the movie? One of my favorites was You-Know-Who weilding a particular weapon...

Not to say that I think the movie was absolutely perfect(no movie is), but I'd say they wrapped up as many character archs and plotpoints as nicely as they could.

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I'm not ashamed to say that at several points throughout the movie I cried.

Having Tony's final words (chronologically) be the ones that arguably kicked off this whole conjoined universe thingy was an absolutely brilliant move. I think the simplicity of those few words and the weight of time behind them is my favourite moment. Having him be the guy who "makes the sacrifice play" (again!) shows a nice growth since his and Cap's initial headbutting.


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I'm not sure where I'd rank Endgame currently, but I enjoy it enough that I'm planning to go see it in theaters a second time.

I did find it interesting at how much of the movie centers upon the idea of grief and survivor's guilt, particularly in how every hero of the original 6 deals with their grief in an unhealthy manner.  BW throws herself into her work, Hawkeye takes out his rage on anyone he possibly can get away with, Thor retreats into substance abuse (both food and alcohol), Cap tries to help people (but avoids coming to terms with his own issues), Banner puts on the 'smiley' affectation, while Tony literally runs away.  

That said, Endgame was immensely satisfying from my fandom point of view.  The arrival of Black Panther and Falcoln, the sight of Cap wielding Mjolnir (and finally saying the one line we've been dying to hear since the beginning), and Tony's final moments were all just phenomenal.

I feel like the only film that really compares well to Endgame is Return of the King; so much of Endgame hinges on the prior movies--literally, with scenes and situations coming directly from them--that it has to be viewed as a culmination of the last decade of filmmaking.  Heck, it even has the "multiple ending" thing going that RotK had.  I honestly hope the Academy will view Endgame in that same wheelhouse.

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That...

What...

I...

They...

*dies*

 

Yeah, that was everything my geeky little heart was looking for. I definitely have a few minor quibbles, but it hit all the right notes, nailed the characters in interesting and smart ways, and wrapped up more than a decade of movies in a wonderfully complete package (along with setting up some great things to come -- Young Avengers, anyone :-D ). 


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There were so many moments in that movie during which I had to restrain myself from squealing with anticipation.  My favorite part, though, was when you-know-who kills you-know-who right after it’s revealed that the you-know-whats have been destroyed.  Someone way up behind me in the theater just shouted “What?”  This movie threw me for a loop with how fast it got to the good stuff and how long it stayed there.  I was watching a video about it afterward and I agree that if they had wanted to, they could have just ended it here.

And they could also make a second, spinoff series where the Time Heist fails and everyone stays snapped, public distrust in superheroes hits an all-time high due to their failure to protect Earth, and the world eventually gets consumed by an Infinity Storm, causing the Celestials and Red Skull to divy up the survivors as they go on interdimensional errands in some sort of tactical board game...

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This is a well-labeled spoilers thread, folks.  You don't have to be obtuse here. 

Trajector
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Beware: I'm gonna take that spirit and run with it!

I guess I'm in a different boat from most viewers on this one. In general, my opinions line up with Chuck Wendig's write-up, except that I landed on ultimately thinking the whole package was...kinda middling.

Mostly, some of the big character arcs didn't pay off for me. Thor and Hulk both completely ignored and even reversed the full development they got in Thor: Ragnarok. Captain America's farewell was poignant in the theater, but then afterwards I realized how he completely bailed on his mission to put things back in the timeline by intentionally putting a rather large extra thing in it. (And I'm supposed to believe that he'd let HYDRA infiltrate SHIELD while he's married to the boss and knows it's happening?) Tony got a good farewell, though he already completed almost this exact character arc in his own movies before Ultron regressed him. Captain Marvel was a complete non-presence in this movie, despite the last two movies promising amazing things from her.

This isn't to say there's not plenty of stuff in there that I enjoyed - Nebula's arc was great, there were some truly funny bits in the clip show that was the time heist ("so many stairs!"), and I think I liked it best when it felt like Thanos was actively working against the heroes' plans.

I wonder what the implications of Endgame will be for the continuing universe. Like, was Peter Parker's whole high school snapped, to keep their age cohort together for Far from Home? Does the "searching..." tag under Gamorra's picture at the end suggest that Tony might have accidentally dusted her along with the rest of the Children of Thanos, in a callback to the beginning of the movie? Is Thor a Guardian now? Is there any Hulk left, or just Banner in a Hulk body? Where did Loki pop off to?

I'm looking forward to more of the individual character movies. 

Just my $0.02...

TakeWalker
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Trajector wrote:

Like, was Peter Parker's whole high school snapped, to keep their age cohort together for Far from Home?

I was thinking about this last night.

The last scene he gets with Ned suggests that Ned was alive and -- like everyone else who survived the snap -- remembers everyone who was gone. So why the hell is he still in high school? I guess it's a good thing the next movie is Spider-Man...

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I do wish more had been done to establish the Hulk's new, merged personality.  It seems like it got brushed over very quickly in the diner scene, and it definitely could have used some more 'meat' there.  And, in terms of Captain Marvel, I think much of it comes down to the fact that Infinity War/Endgame were filmed prior to her movie, so the writers didn't necessarily know exactly how *big* Carol would be.  I did appreciate the scenes she was in, especially her interaction with Peter Parker and her one-on-one fight with Thanos, but I would have loved to see more from her.

However, I'd stand by the regression of Thor, mainly linked to the speed at which events occur within Ragnarok and Infinity War.  From the destruction of Asgard to the snap, there are what, 5 days?  Maybe?  Thor goes from a great victory--the evacuation of Asgard's people and his acceptance of his father's throne--to complete and utter defeat in that span.  Literally half (if not more) of his people have been killed, his newly-reconciled brother is dead, his best friends are all dead, and all of his newfound power did nothing to stop it.  Even when he finally has a chance at revenge, he blows it.  He gets the satisfaction of revenge by beheading Thanos, but after that, what does he have? 

Despair.

He has nothing left to really live for, his great quest has ended in failure, and life in a seaside village in front of a video game console seems like a good alternative.  By literally hiding (in terms of binge eating and alcoholism, in terms of using video games as an unhealthy coping mechanism, and in terms of literally hiding away from his Asgardian brethren), he never has to face the shame of having failed.  And where did all that start?  Not being able to save Frigga from the dark elves.  He couldn't save her, her couldn't save Odin, he couldn't save Loki or Heimdall or the Warriors Three.  Any evolution Thor had over those 5ish days between Ragnarok and Infinity War is cut off at the root by Thor's shame.

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About Spiderman... (since only the people we care about were snapped they can use new extras).

I think that this movie wasn’t really the place to explore the new Hulk, but I don’t think there’s much of a change there, really.  Bruce has, over 5 years, found a way to be big and green and calm, but we never saw the Hulk really emerge.  And Bruce is always full of it when it comes to his relation with the other guy.  He’s not some perfect fusion of Hulk and Banner now, he’s just Banner who stole Hulk’s body.  And when the worm turns, I think there will be smashing.

Also, personally, I think that Old Steve Rogers is Loki.  And here’s why.  America’s Ass goes all Doctor Who, fixing the wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff- which means, at some point, he realizes that Loki is missing.  “Great, I’ll dispose of multiple avian beasts with just one rock,” says Captain Time, but when he arrives at Asgard, Loki can sense that Cap has wielded the Mind Stone (also he’s holding the Nexus and Mjolnir), and it’s a dead giveaway.  Loki, already seeing things fall into place with Ragnarok and doubting Thanos’ willingness to not kill him, learns from Cap what his future holds, and makes a deal- he’ll provide Cap with a way to live happily ever after without screwing up the timeline, and in return, Cap will help Loki survive Thanos.  2008 Cap would never have agreed to this, but 2019 Cap is carrying the briefcase from Pulp Fiction and has, in the last 24 hours(?) sworn allegiance to his mortal enemies to avoid a fight that he already won once, and punched- and mind-controlled- his former self.  Everything he’s ever known has been called into question over 10 years.  They have a heart-to-heart about family, honor, and duty, and Cap agrees.  When Cap goes back to meet Red Skull about a Soul Gem (and punches him, out of force of habit), he trades “a soul for a soul”- bonding Loki to the Stone, before they’re ever used.  When the stones are used by Hulk, Loki is un-killed along with the Snappening victims and disguises himself as a random Asgardian in the chaos.  He attends Tony Stark’s funeral in the guise of that kid from Iron Man 3, and relays what happened to Steve Rogers, as Steve Rogers (notably, one of his favorite people to impersonate).  And where’s our Cap?  In another universe, where Steve Rogers never survived in the ice, filling the void that his alternate self left behind.

It’s a stretch, but I reeeeaaaaally want Loki to still be alive.

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I'm of the opinion that there are now at least three timelines (Which is a thing we can say now that the Ancient One introduced the concept in-universe)

T1: the end of the movie. all of the things, loss, grief, celebration, reunions, etc.

T2: Loki poofs off with the Tesseract. I don't think anyone (in T1) knew about this or cared, as Cap was just tasked with getting the stones back to the point at which they were taken. Iron Man knows he botched the lift, but I didn't recall anyone seeing Loki voip. Since Cap only needed to replace the Tesseract in the 70s, he may have noticed in the space where he tried to put back the scepter, but I'm not banking on that. I think this is their excuse to have the Loki show on D+ take place in this alt-timeline.

T3: No more Thanos pre/as GotG 1 happens. Since Tony Snapped all of the 2014 Thanos-ians (maybe including Gamorra?), there is no impetus for the Guardians to unite and do stuff. This is a pretty strange timeline, as it doesn't have any of the "Thanos-Chases-the-Infinity-stones" plot, since in that timeline, there is no Thanos. This is the shakiest one, as Tony could have snapped them all back to 2014 and it just looks like dusting for the audience, but I'm in the camp that Tony didn't have the presence of mind to do that, and just wanted them all gone, thinking (as suggested by Strange's indication) that this was the only way to "win".

I hope all of the future movies keep to the Prime timeline, as it would get pretty complex if everything from here on out allowed time travel, alt-realities, and so on, but we'll see pretty soon.

Also, Mariner, I didn't think about if all of the classmates were snapped (and therefore came back at the same age), that makes it all much simpler. I was trying to pull wierd "some of them are in college and Parker is just smart enough to join them" stuff and turned the whole thing into a semester abroad.


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The Mariner wrote:

Also, personally, I think that Old Steve Rogers is Loki.

Oh man, this would be a fantastic plot for a Captain America Through Time movie, which is already something I want. :D

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TakeWalker wrote:

 

The Mariner wrote:

 

Also, personally, I think that Old Steve Rogers is Loki.

 

Oh man, this would be a fantastic plot for a Captain America Through Time movie, which is already something I want. :D

Yes, for sure.  Maybe while putting away the Stones he runs into Kang the Conqueror.

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I'd be hesitant for a Kang the Conqueror/Immortus movie so soon after Thanos, same with Galactus; another purple guy with a weird chin in a time-travel storyline might start to get a bit redundant.  However, I could see a through-line being "You Avengers have broken time with your meddling.  I, the Conqueror, will rectify your mistakes..."

I do hope they manage to bring in Annihilus at some point.  There was a brief allusion to him on the Captain Marvel "90s-era" website they put up, which might indicate Annihilus appearing in a CM sequel, or perhaps a Guardians of the Galaxy sequel.  The Annihilation storyline went over really well a few years back, so I could see that becoming the backbone of an MCU storyline.  Annihilus would also be a good entry point for other Fantastic Four concepts, starting with the Negative Zone.

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I think there's a fourth timeline, too - the one with Captain America inserted into it.

Speaking of... Does Steve just, like...go up to Red Skull and hand him an infinity stone?

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It was a totally awesome movie!

One thing that confuses me about it is why Peter and Ned first meet at school after the undusting. Aren't they like best friends, so why wouldn't they try to get ahold of eachother within a few days of the undusting? Unless it occured on a school night and thus everyone was due back to their normally scheduled lives. Fingers crossed Spider-man will at least talk about how things have changed...

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On that note, if there was one thing that surprised me, it was the lack of news reports about the event. I was expecting a lot of global reaction, masses of mourners, that kind of thing, but we basically just got the one support group with Steve Rogers and that was it. Not that it was a bad thing, just not the direction I expected they'd go.

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Just saw this, and was very happy with the Russos' answer, because Old Cap showing up in the main timeline contradicted everything they had laid out in their rules: https://www.slashfilm.com/avengers-endgame-final-scene-explained/

TakeWalker wrote:

On that note, if there was one thing that surprised me, it was the lack of news reports about the event. I was expecting a lot of global reaction, masses of mourners, that kind of thing, but we basically just got the one support group with Steve Rogers and that was it. Not that it was a bad thing, just not the direction I expected they'd go.

Personally, I liked that. It kept it personal, instead of making it about unnamed masses. :-) 


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Ronway wrote:

It was a totally awesome movie!

One thing that confuses me about it is why Peter and Ned first meet at school after the undusting. Aren't they like best friends, so why wouldn't they try to get ahold of eachother within a few days of the undusting? Unless it occured on a school night and thus everyone was due back to their normally scheduled lives. Fingers crossed Spider-man will at least talk about how things have changed...

If the newest trailer is anything to go by, it'll at least get a mention.

Rabit
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For those who haven't seen it, here's the latest trailer and a scene-by-scene breakdown

It's pretty apparent they're going to talk about it. I just assumed that the people that matter to Peter were also hit by the snap, so they are behind just like he was. There will probably be some people who moved on that won't be important to the movie -- and there might even be some younger siblings of folks who are now "older"! :-o 


"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal

Until we have an H emoticon:

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Also, according to the Homecoming trailer, it looks like a.) Cap did indeed screw up the timelines, and b.) HOLY CRAP IS THAT CAPTAIN BRITAIN?

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Unless, you know, the Master of Mystery! is lying, again. (Which is bordering on a superpower if it can fool S.H.I.E.L.D.!)


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Rabit
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Matchstickman wrote:

Unless, you know, the Master of Mystery! is lying, again. (Which is bordering on a superpower if it can fool S.H.I.E.L.D.!)

Or maybe that isn't Nick Fury... ;-) 


"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal

Until we have an H emoticon:

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Honestly, he does look a lot like Mysterio.  But I would rather see another cool hero that can stick around than yet another one-and-done baddie that will never show up again.  Also, European field trip... perfect opportunity to namedrop Latveria and confirm Dr. Doom.

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Funny thing to me about the a Far from Home trailer was how OblivAeon was supposed to be tying up all the loose ends and multiverses - Avengers: Endgame sure seems like it's blown open all the crazy time travel and multiverse plots now!

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I have to say, though, they pulled one over on me.  I was expecting Nebula to just take the Gauntlet like in the comics.  But now I’m just waiting for the Captain America: Time Cop spinoff.  I do wonder if he got like a wish granted or something for giving up the Soul Stone.

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I keep thinking of vignettes of Cap returning the objects. 

*Cap shows up wherever Loki ends up, casually knocks him out with Thor's hammer, and uses the tessaract to put Loki back in Avenger's tower. He leaves the tessaract and the scepter by Loki's unconcious body, which is conveniantly right next to past Cap's unconcious body.

*Cap knocks on a big door. The Ancient One opens it. "You know," she says, "it is a bit anti-climactic when I place the fate of the universe in somebody else's hands and then his friend shows up an hour later and says that the problem has been solved." "Believe me," Cap reasured, "I think I've had enough excitement to last me a lifetime." He hands her the time stone then walks away. The Ancient One calls out to Cap. "Enjoy your dance! Don't break the rules too much!"

*Thor and Rocket telleport out of the Asgard room, Thor's mother hanging out by the window, thinking. Suddenly Cap shows up in the window. "Excuse me maam," he says. Thor's mom yells in surprise. Cap continues, "Sorry. Can I leave this hammer here? Thanks!"

*Cap arrives at the Vormir cliff and finds the shadowy figure. "Red Skull?!" gasps a surprised Cap. "Screw this! I'm not giving this to you!" Skull rolls his eyes. "I'm dead, dummkopf. What the hell do you think I'm going to do with it?" "Good point." Cap responds before handing the stone to Skull. Skull then casually tosses the stone over his shoulder and over the edge of the cliff.

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BrianleWolfhunt wrote:

*Cap shows up wherever Loki ends up, casually knocks him out with Thor's hammer, and uses the tessaract to put Loki back in Avenger's tower. He leaves the tessaract and the scepter by Loki's unconcious body, which is conveniantly right next to past Cap's unconcious body.

I especially like this. :D

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I... guess I gotta go against the mold. I wasn’t a fan.

I’ll admit there were some moments that got my attention. Cap wielding Mjolnir, I distinctly remember the entire theatre went nuts over. But that wasn’t the bit I liked most. My favourite moment in the movie was honestly Thor learning he was still worthy. Sometimes when we have depression, we forget the things that make us who we are, and that make us matter, and I thought that scene really succintly summarised the feeling of rediscovering those things. 

But in general, I thought they had too many balls in the air, and too many dropped. For instance, of all the people left alive after IW, I was really curious to see where they would take Okoye. Wakanda without a royal family seemed an interesting prospect, and I thought they might show her trying to maintain the country’s cohesion. But her entire role in the movie kinda just boiled down to teasing Namor. I’m all for Imperius Rex, but come on, at least use the characters you didn’t kill.

And then there’s Black Widow... jeez, this movie did not do her justice. A character consistently downplayed or disregarded within the franchise, largely ignored in marketing, and the butt of jokes about being the “useless” Avenger, and in the end it seemed like the film itself agreed, since all it thought she could contribute was dying for the Soul Gem. Doesn’t help that unlike Iron Man, she doesn’t get a big funeral farewell. It honestly ruined the big “girl power” scene for me, because it’s kinda like, “Yeah, check out all the cool female characters we got! Not you, Black Widow, you’re not good enough.” I know that’s not the intention, but it was kinda tonedeaf in my opinion.

I have other issues with the film, but I think I’ve been enough of a buzzkill. I’m glad everyone else seems to enjoy it, but the negatives outweighed the positives for me. Happy to talk about it with anyone who’s interested, though.

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I'm with you, TGWNN. The further I get from seeing the movie in the theater, the more I feel it undermined itself (and other MCU movies) and patted itself on the back for payoff that it didn't really earn. You are especially right that they didn't use any of their women well, which was really strange after specifically highlighting several in Black Panther, Ragnarok, and Captain Marvel. It's like Marvel showed itself willing to learn to tell new, diverse stories...but then for their set-piece they went back to a certain kind of fan service.

Maybe I should just go listen to the OblivAeon podcasts again. ;)