Attacks in SC RPG

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audiographer
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Attacks in SC RPG

I have read the rules a couple of times now and still have questions about attacks.  Do attacks always hit?  I got the idea from page 5 that an attack roll had to be successful but I cannot find anything about difficulty or target numbers.  The conclusion I have come to is that the appropriate die for the attack is compared to the Overcome table and that is the result of the attack.  That lead to another question.  How does someone roll a 0 or less on the Overcome table?


Edited by: grysqrl on Jul 4 2018 - 9:06pm
dprcooke
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Attacks always hit.  The damage is normally equal to number rolled on the mid die (unless a special ability dictates that you should use another die).

If a character rolled poorly and had a penalty (or just had a bunch of penalties) it would be possible for the result of an overcome to be a 0.

bluedarky
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Ok, attacks technically always hit, against characters with hp values you remove the result minus any defense.

Against minions you make a roll against the damage with the minion die, if the minion rolls higher then the minion survives but reduces its die size by 1 level (d12>d10>d8>d6>d4), if it’s lower then the minion is destroyed, d4 minions are automatically destroyed when they take any damage.

For Lieutenants it’s similar to minions but it they succeed at the roll they take no damage and if they fail they drop a die and are destroyed if they fail at d4.

degausser
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Attacks do NOT always hit.  Under normal circumstances they do, but if an attack has a hinder penalty that reduces your die roll to less than 1, then it is basically a miss.  Similarly if a creature uses the defend action and reduces all damage to zero, it is basically also a miss.

MindWanderer
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If you're used to games like D&D, where there are separate hit and damage rolls, then yes, every attack against a villain is a hit. Damage can be modified to zero, though.

Against a lieutenant, each attack is either a hit or a miss (although there's an overkill rule in beta right now). Against a minion, each attack is either a hit or a kill.


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aramis
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MindWanderer wrote:

If you're used to games like D&D, where there are separate hit and damage rolls, then yes, every attack against a villain is a hit. Damage can be modified to zero, though.

Against a lieutenant, each attack is either a hit or a miss (although there's an overkill rule in beta right now). Against a minion, each attack is either a hit or a kill.

Against Lieutenants, it's a difference between a telling hit or a hit that did no major harm...

the only "miss" is when a hinder or defense drops damage to zero. And some defenses logically are also hits. 

Logically...

Power Armor+Veteran+Status as a defend action isn't going to result in a miss, it's going to result in a deflection.

An ice shield on Cold+Intuition+Status is a miss on the target if it reduces to zero... the attack was stopped in the ice.

A GreatBigMagicSword+Warrior+Status is likely a parry - again, no hit, but definitely in contact with the opponent's weapon.

Mechanically, they're all the same... except for the verisimilitude at the table.


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drkrash1969
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I apologize for necro'ing this, but this seemed a relevant thread rather than me starting a new one.

I'm a KS backer and I just bought the Starter Kit and I'm trying to figure out if this will be a novelty I use when I play a one-shot or if this could be a system I'd use for my current campaign.  The jury is definitely still out.

I like a lot of ideas in the system, but I have an issue with attacks: they seem too good.

I understand that circumstances might necessitate an Overcome action on a turn.  But when trying to just negatively affect an opponent, I can't see why anyone would ever Boost/Hinder, rather than Attack.

If I do a good Boost/Hinder, I or someone else might get +4/-4 on a future roll.  Or I could just do a lot of damage to a villain instead.  Why *wouldn't* I do that?  And the answer can't be, "Because the story would be better if I did a mechanically inefficient choice."  My players will rarely be inclined to make such a choice, and if the game thrives on that, it's probably not going to work for our group.

Also, I see that I can do an Attack as part of an Ability, but I can also do a Attack as a Basic Action.  Abilities are usually better, but most characters can get a lot of mileage out of just punching people.  Sure, the GM might give only a d4 for Power, but the other 2 dice are likely to still make punching a viable damage-dealing option with little difference from energy blasts or super-strength.

Am I missing something here? Does the game have cool possibilities, but you generally only encounter them by willingly choosing to make story-driven, bad "game" choices (which is a viable RPG playstyle, but not for me and mine)?

(FWIW, our group cannot get Marvel Cortex to work or FATE to work.  We've never tried PbTA, but I suspect it would go poorly also.)

TIA for the help.

Sea-Envy
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many scenerios wil not have an enemy to attack or you will be able to end a scene with 3 overcome actions faster than KOing every hosile target

overcome actions can also be used to keep the scene tracker from moving- possibly while everyone else is hitting the bad guy

boosting the next players action might be the only way to reliably overcome 

 

Yes "just punch them" is often good enough in a fight 


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ErekLich
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Hinders are more effective against minions and lieutenants, which is intended to be the majority of what you're fighting.  Depending on your timing, you can either penalize their next offensive role or their next defense roll!  Given the way minion/lieutenant health works, a hinder followed immediately by a punch is often more effective than punching twice, especially against lieutenants.

Another sort of hidden feature you're not accounting for is that Abilities which Boost and Hinder "scale up" far more effectively than Abilities which Attack.  The options for stronger boost/hinders (either being Persistent or just using stronger dice) and multitarget boost/hinders are just plain better than their attack counterparts.  Yeah, the basic action hinder is meh, but you get a *lot* more out of the abilities.

MindWanderer
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I agree with the above.  It's rare that a hero will want to take a basic hinder action, but getting a mass hinder, or a hinder as a rider to a different action, is pretty good.  And it is more valuable on stronger enemies.  Hindering a Lieutenant's next save is frequently a good idea, if they have a large die and you don't have any particularly effective attacks available to you.  Similarly, boosts are bad when used on most basic actions but great when used on abilities, or on critical Overcomes.

As for enemies, it's true, usually they're better off just attacking, but that's the GM's call on how to keep encounters fun.  More than most other systems, Sentinels RPG relies on the GM not playing enemies optimally all the time.


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TakeWalker
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I wondered the same thing myself before I started seeing the system in play. Groups who just attack or overcome end up taking lots of damage as things spiral out of control around them. Boosts help avoid major twists, not to mention let you take down large targets faster. Hinders meanwhile are frequently important for reducing incoming damage as well as messing with a villain's plans. Teams who regularly mix boosts and hinders into their teamwork come out on top by more than just the skin of their teeth.

Though if your players just like punching things and ignoring the plot, this may not be the system for them. :B Never know till you try!

drkrash1969
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Thanks, everyone.  I see now also by reading the adventures more carefully that the scenes are usually constructed to have some other problems that need to be addressed by the game mechanics in addition to throwing punches.  In other supers games I've run, I usually have such problems in scenes, but they don't have such a strong rules-centered response of how to fix them (e.g., Overcome, usually).  It's also a good reminder to me as a GM that a slightly more chaotic action scene is probably better than just a fight (which I do default to from time to time).

This conclusion leads to two other potential issues I have, one maybe with the game, and one entirely my own.

* I look forward to seeing one of the upcoming announced chapters about how to build scenes.  I hope there are some excellent tools, because I don't have the time to make the details seen in the starter kit stories.  I loved Skill Challenges in D&D4 also, but I could never create very interesting ones on my own.

* The other persistent problem with SCRPG that is more particular to my players (i.e., old people who have played Champions for decades) is that the game requires a "narrative-first" approach to actions to keep it from falling into a benchmark-free dice-rolling game.  This is potentially true of all RPGs, but the scale of dice results in SCRPG (1-12, on a very narrow bell curve) requires good story-telling to make it soar.  Most of my players are burnt out on a Friday night and couldn't keep this style of play up for our normal 3-hour session.  Like I said, though, that's my problem, not the game's.

ErekLich
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One thing I've found that might help draw your players into it is pointing out the advantage it gives them in terms of "stunting" - say, for instance, that your player wants to leap from car to car, damaging their tires to keep the bad guys from getting away.  In most systems, that's at least 3 or 4 rolls, some of which are those obscure rules you have to look up once a campaign.  In SCRPG?  "Okay, that's an Overcome action."  And, unlike other, "the rules are a fig leaf," systems SCRPG has all the mechanics ypu need to make characters distinct and nuanced.