A Hero's Guide to the Argent Adept

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Splurgendii
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dypaca wrote:

Envisioner is right, the key to using a single copy of Subdominant multiple times is the idea that it isn't destroyed until you fully resolve the power it grants you, and that each of Adepts extra powers are resolved now

(Meaning that if one power grants you another power, that new power is resolved before the first one is considered finished, or even before it activates a second song if the first activation granted the power).

Ahhhh

Very insightful... I took a leap of faith on decided to base this all instrument, hypothetical turn on the misinterpretation from the OP, which in hind sight made no sense.

Fascinating
It's AFTER the power granted by the subdominant's accompany that triggers its selfdestruction.
Therefore if the power granted from it is immediately used on the bell which through it resolution can reach the dominant's accompany a second time before its self destruction, it makes the play legitamate.

WIth the dominant gone after its second useage I'm at a loss on how to play the final instrument.

Does anybody have a complete hypothetical turn involving all instruments and vocalization?

 

Splurgendii
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Ah, thought about it again... given the new information~ Run this through your guys' head and let me know if you think this is legitamte.

One Turn: All instruments + vocalization.
Requirements, same as before: Supertonic + Alacritous Subdominant + Prolyphric ... something, I forgot the name.

Card playing phase: Play prolyphic~ Argent Adept takes 2 damage and is able to use a power NOW.
Take granted power and use it on the harp.

Harp: Supertonic + Subdominant~ 2 powers.
(This next move is very specific and important).
Seeing as how the resolution of the power granted from the supertonic does NOT trigger a self destruction for any card on its resolution, the next step in the turn is to use THAT power on the HORN!!!
Activate the horn~ One melody of the players choice and another usage of the Subdominant's accompany ~ power in hand.

 

Now~ returning to the power granted from the first usage of the dominant's accompany, we now use that power on the bell!

And once again... seeing as its the "RESOLUTION" of the power that triggers the destruction of the dominant, we can use the bell to gain a rhythem perform and for the third time trigger the dominant's accompany before it destroys itself~ 2 powers in hand, Alactritous subdominant is now gone.

Now, one of the two powers in hand (doesn't matter which) is used on the lyra.
Lyra: supertonic + rhythem accompany~ one more power giving the total amount back up to two again.

and finally, the two final powers, one is used on the drums and one on the fluts for one final rhythem accompany and whopping three melodies.

 

END of card playing phase (LOL)

Powerphase: Vocalize.

 

Final Net
By my count.
Two Rhythm Performances
One Rhythem Accompany
Four Melodies.
One vocalize.

 

BlueHairedMeerkat
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I don't think 'keeping powers in hand' is legal, so I'm not sure that works. I have never done this thing, but I wonder if I can sort it now quickly...

Hang on, no, simple solution: just use both copies of Alacritous Subdominant; one gets destroyed, and then you activate the other :D


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dypaca
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I think the OP actually explained this rather clearly:

flamethrower49 wrote:
The Accompany of Alacritous Subdominant sticks around until after the power is used.  If, as a part of using that power, you get a chance to use another Harmony Accompany, then Alacritous Subdominant will still be there. 

The whole idea is that you never have multiple 'powers in hand' with the way the Adept grants them.  You just have the chain of powers that you are resolving.  So when the Harp activates the perform of Supertonic, you immediately start resolving another power before the Harp activates a Harmony accompany.

So one possible sequence is:

  1. Harp perform supertonic
  2. Lyra/Guitar perform supertonic
  3. Drum accompany Rythm
  4. Drum perform melody
  5. Lyra/Guitar accompany Rythm
  6. Harp accompany subdominant
  7. Bell perform Rythm
  8. Bell accompany subdominant
  9. Horn perform Melody
  10. Horn accompany subdominant
  11. Pipes perform Melody
  12. Pipes perform a different Melody.

Then, you have completed the original power on the Horn.  If that power was part of Polyphoric Flare or Silver Shadow, then you still have your normal power for Vocalize.  There are alot of different sequences that work though.  One option to keep in mind is chaining Silver Shadow and Polyphoric Flare together to burn an extra oneshot but free up one of your performs/accompanies which was being used on an extra power.

phantaskippy
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Silver Shadow to use alac to harp

Harp1 super lyra super pipes

Harp2 alac bell, alac horn, alac drum, alac destroyed.

Then play flare as 2nd part of silver to vocalize.

Power phase twiddle thumbs

Did this in game.

Splurgendii
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Ok...

Is this principle true when dealing with Sumdominant's accompany?
"The accompany grants a power which when said power is "resolved", it triggers the destruction of the card"
(paraphrased)
If that above is true... I think there's a problem with the sequence you shared, let's lay the whole thing out and zero in closely.
 

Two sequence of events beginning from the harp's activation

dypaca wrote:

Sequence one:

Harp's performance = supertonic -> Lyra

Lyra = Supertonic/Rhythem accompany -> Drum

Drum = Rhythem accompany + Melody

checks out, no problem.

 

2nd sequence of events beginning from the harp's accopany activation

dypaca wrote:

Sequence two:

Harp's accompany = Subdominant -> Bell

Bell = Rhythem performance + Subdominant -> Horn

Horn = Melody + Subdominant -> Flutes (point of focus)

Flutes = Two melodies

 

The initial power granted from the subdominat's accopany; it's resolution is what triggers its self destruction right???

In your sequence, the first power granted form the subdominant's accompany is used on the bell therefore it's resolution is what triggers subdominant's destruction. If true, it should follow that regardless of how the Bell is resolved, once it is so the subdominant should be destroyed.

The bell's resolution is activating a rhythem perform and subdominant's accompany which is legitamate. However when these last two actions are performed the bell is resolved which then should trigger subdominant's destruction.

If all is true so far,  then once the power obtained from the bell through the subdominant is used to activate the horn there shouldn't be a subdominant available for the horn to use on. Thus no power to use to activate the flutes.

 

 

 

dypaca
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The Bell isn't done until it has finished using the Subdominant, which includes using the power and destroying the card.  Plus, finishing the power granted by Subdominant isn't really what causes subdominant to be destroyed.  It is destroyed by completely resolving the Subdominant, but you can't do that until you finish resolving the power it grants.

The Accompany of Subdominant is basically two steps:

  1. You may use a power now
  2. If you did, destroy subdominant

So first the harp activates it, but it is still doing step 1 because the Bell is being resolved.  Then the Bell activates it, and is also on step 1 while the Horn is used.  Finally the Horn will activate it and is doing step 1 to use the Flutes.  Then, once the Flutes are done, the Horn moves on to step 2 and now the Subdominant is destroyed.  Then the Bell continues, but the card is already gone, and the same thing happens with the Harp.

I'm not sure if there has been an official ruling that this is how it is supposed to work, but resolving the steps in this way is the justification for re-using the Subdominant like this.

Splurgendii
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dypaca wrote:

The Bell isn't done until it has finished using the Subdominant, which includes using the power and destroying the card.  Plus, finishing the power granted by Subdominant isn't really what causes subdominant to be destroyed.  It is destroyed by completely resolving the Subdominant, but you can't do that until you finish resolving the power it grants.The Accompany of Subdominant is basically two steps:You may use a power nowIf you did, destroy subdominantSo first the harp activates it, but it is still doing step 1 because the Bell is being resolved.  Then the Bell activates it, and is also on step 1 while the Horn is used.  Finally the Horn will activate it and is doing step 1 to use the Flutes.  Then, once the Flutes are done, the Horn moves on to step 2 and now the Subdominant is destroyed.  Then the Bell continues, but the card is already gone, and the same thing happens with the Harp.I'm not sure if there has been an official ruling that this is how it is supposed to work, but resolving the steps in this way is the justification for re-using the Subdominant like this.

 

fascinating

phantaskippy
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OK, so for fun I played a solo game of Greatest Legacy, Scholar, Omnitron-X, Argent Adept, in time cataclysm.

The entire point was to go through all the instruments as many times as possible in one round.

Well Omni hit cadence turn one, so the instruments got out quick.

When Fixed Point came out I was ready.

GLegs got everything but drum, Scholar did P&A, for all but drum again, then Omni pulled Silver Shadow which I had put back with Adept's vernal for all but perform.  Adept dealt well over 100 damage before his turn, when he lost his +6 to damage.  

Splurgendii
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When a one shot is used... is it immediately put into the discard pile or does it remain on the field until the resolution of its affects.

Why is this an important question?

Playing Silver shadow and then using its extra play feature to play a vernal sonata.
From that point, is silver shadow in the discard pile for vernal sonata to fetch? or is it still on the field and therefore out of sonata's reach to interact with?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Had a game earlier today where both "inventive preperation" and "Subdominant" were in play but with no instruments however.
Amongst other cards, two vernal sonatas and one silver shadow in hand.

Play phase: Silver shadow on Invenptive prep ~ out of turn card play
Extra play: Vernal sonata ~ silver shadow return to top of deck

Power Phase: Subdominant ~ out of turn play.

Repeat for two more turns...
Artificially having the same affect as if Lyra was in play for three turns ;)
(legit?)

dypaca
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Oneshots go in the trash after resolving their effect.  So in this case Silver Shadow shouldn't be in the trash until you have finished the last effect (playing and resolving Vernal Sonata).

EDIT: While the instrument discussion was fairly related to the strategy guide, this is reaching a point where it would probably be better to ask questions in a new thread.

 

robb8888
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One of my favorite combos is with AA *and* Grandpa Legacy.  If you have AA's instruments/songs set up so that he can use multiple Performs/Accompanies on a turn, then Grandpa Legacy can use his Gung Ho! power to let AA (essentially) have another go at it while healing in the bargain.  Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

 

AA has:  

Alacritous Subdominant

Inspiring Supertonic

Inventive Preparation

Telamon's Lute (Harmony Perform and Rhythm Accompany)

Musaragni's Harp (Harmony Perform and Harmony Accompany)

 

AA's turn:  

(1) Musaragni's Harp -- gives him a Harmony Perform and a Harmony Accompany:

       (a) Harmony Perform -- use Inspiring Supertonic's Perform which lets any hero use a power.  Use that on AA; it will let him play another instrument...

              (i)  Telamon's Lute -- gives him a Harmony Perform and a Rhythm Accompany;

                      (A)  Harmony Perform -- use Alacritous Subdominant -- any hero can play a card out of turn  (**Note:  If you've been spamming this for a while, and you don't need as many out-of-turn card plays, then swap this for a second Inspiring Supertonic, and let a hero use a power out of turn)

                      (B)  Rhythm Accompany -- use Inventive Preparation -- any hero (except AA) can play a card out of turn

        (b) Harmony Accompany (from Musaragni's Harp) -- AA gains +2 HP (I find this particularly useful, since AA is often the hero with the least HP, and tends to get beat on often)

 

So at the end of AA's turn, you've had two out-of-turn card plays, and AA has gained +2 HP.  Then if Grandpa Legacy is next, have him use Gung Ho on AA to let AA use a power out of turn.  As the power, use Musaragni's Harp, and repeat the steps above.  After two hero turns, the end result is *four* (4) out-of-turn card plays, and AA gains +5 HP.   With four out-of-turn card plays, suddenly setup-heavy characters like Unity, Fixer, and Expatriette become much more workable.   Or RA/Tempest/Tachyon pound enemies to hamburger with strings of damage one-shots.  Or combine this with characters who have one-shots that allow out-of-turn card draw/play (Tachyon, Scholar), and you can add still more out-of-turn carnage.  

Ameena
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Getting Captain Cosmic to stick a Dynamic Siphon on a decently set-up Adept and then having everyone deliberately plink it for one or two points of damage on each of their turns can get pretty ridiculous as well >:). Even more so if the Adept has either or both copies of Rhapsody of Vigour out along with the Pipes (or the Horn, if you only have one copy), since he can then heal the Siphon back up again and let you keep repeating the procedure multiple times every round until everyone is set up as much as they want to be, all unwanted ongoing/environment cards are destroyed soon after coming out, and anything else that you might want done has been done :D.


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Escher
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Ameena wrote:

Getting Captain Cosmic to stick a Dynamic Siphon on a decently set-up Adept and then having everyone deliberately plink it for one or two points of damage on each of their turns can get pretty ridiculous as well >:). Even more so if the Adept has either or both copies of Rhapsody of Vigour out along with the Pipes (or the Horn, if you only have one copy), since he can then heal the Siphon back up again and let you keep repeating the procedure multiple times every round until everyone is set up as much as they want to be, all unwanted ongoing/environment cards are destroyed soon after coming out, and anything else that you might want done has been done :D.


That's true; one thing this guide didn't mention (likely due to pre-dating the deck) is using the Scherzo's two plinks to trigger Captain Cosmic's devices. A guaranteed activation of two siphons or heals each turn, in addition to repairing the damage done? That's pretty solid use of the pipes, especially if you can make that the endpoint of a power chain through Supertonics or Subdominants.
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Ameena wrote:
Getting Captain Cosmic to stick a Dynamic Siphon on a decently set-up Adept and then having everyone deliberately plink it for one or two points of damage on each of their turns can get pretty ridiculous as well >:)

So much so that this combination of heroes is hard banned at our table. Mostly because I think we had at one point seven layers of nested actions resolving themselves and every turn started taking ten times as long as it should because the most logical action every turn was to ping Dynamic Siphons. It made every fight tedious and not challenging.

TakeWalker
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Stuff like that is a lot more fun on the video game, because then at least you don't have to keep track of what's going on.

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... But then you don't realize when you accidentally end the combo and don't want to rewind because it will go aaaaaaaaaaaall the way back!

Ameena
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I like having to keep track of everything, becuase then I can actually keep track of everything ;).


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mwc146
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I have had more than one game where, late in the game, it's my turn as AA and I go to the table, "Give me a minute, things are about to get crazy."

Ameena
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Yeah, I love games like that - the Adept does All of the Things and everyone else subsequently gets to do a whole bunch of things. Multiple times, if you happen to have a Dynamic Siphon >:D.


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