A Hero's Guide to the Argent Adept

77 posts / 0 new
Last post
flamethrower49
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 6 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Apr 04, 2012
A Hero's Guide to the Argent Adept

Character Profile

  • Best Attack: Cedistic Dissonant
  • Best Team Support: Alacritous Subdominant
  • Best Personal Support: Inspiring Supertonic
  • Honorable Mention: Silver Shadow
  • Damage Types: Fire, Cold, and Sonic
  • Nemesis: Akash’Bhuta
  • Worst Card: Rhapsody of Vigor

The Argent Adept is the ultimate support character in Sentinels of the Multiverse.  His varied musical effects are capable of giving heroes just about any boon in the game, and he can build up an arsenal of flexible powers capable of solving any problem.  With time, he can chain his instruments and songs to create a whole host of effects that can be used every turn.  To effectively play the Argent Adept, you must have an open mind, and you must be willing to be a team player.  Once you embrace the style, there’s no end to the wonder this musician creates.

A Word of Clarification

Part of the strength of the Argent Adept lies in the fact that Perform and Accompany abilities are not powers.  While you can still only use any given power once a turn, you can use the abilities on any given song several times a turn, if you can manage it.  This is essential for understanding his full potential.

Attack

Generally speaking, if you are actively dealing hit point damage with the Argent Adept, something has gone horribly wrong.  It’s fine if that’s all you have, or if you’re with other low-damage heroes.  On the whole, however, it is far more optimal if you allow others to increase their capacity for damage by using the effects listed in the next section.  If you are reduced to belting out damage, Scherzo of Frost and Flame and the Accompany of Syncopated Onslaught are your tools.  As long as there’s no armor, these are decent, and you probably get them for free.

The Perform of Cedistic Dissonant is different.  By trading an instrument, you can remove almost any impediment in the game.  You can zap targets that are immune to damage.  You can kill relics or spaceships without batting an eye.  You can even remove environments or ongoing cards, if you’re too desperate to wait for Sarabande of Destruction.  This is utility of the highest order, but it usually works out the same as a huge attack.  If you have an instrument you’re not otherwise using, this is a great way to solve problems.  If you are making good use of all your instruments, this is a desperation tactic, but one that works.                                                                                                    

TEAM Attack!

Inspiring Supertonic’s Perform means the Argent Adept has effective use of any power.  This alone gives a glimpse into his utility.  Let somebody damage something?  Let somebody get set up?  Use more of your instruments?  This last one, while not the most powerful thing you can do with the card, is interesting.  You can use the Harp and the Lyra for extra Accompany uses.  For instance, with Musaragni’s Harp in play, you can use the Perform, use a different Instrument (or Vocalize), and then gain 2 hit points from the Accompany.  This little trick isn’t always the best use of your time, but keep it in mind.

Despite the strength of that card, Alacritous Subdominant’s Perform gets my vote for the best effect in the game.  Letting people play extra cards hastens the setup for heroes that require it, amplifies the effectiveness of the heroes that don’t, and can also help Argent Adept with his own (non-trivial) setup.  Be careful when playing against villains that can punish you for playing lots of cards, as with Citizen Dawn’s Devastating Aurora.  Inventive Preparation’s Accompany does the same thing, except that you can’t use it on yourself.  These two cards with Telemon’s Lyra represent one of the strongest combinations you can pull off.

Syncopated Onslaught’s Perform provides a straightforward boost to two targets.  While obviously not as broad an ability as Legacy’s Galvanize, this does have a couple of advantages.  You can selectively exclude heroes who might prefer not to have it, like Nightmist.  Also, this card is not limited to hero targets.  Keep that in mind if you’re relying on an environment target for some damage.

Team Defense

The Argent Adept has an array of defensive effects as well.  Rhapsody of Vigor can heal every hero, but the card has more utility than that.  It can heal other hero targets, like Unity’s Golems or Visionary’s Decoy Projection.  It can also heal helpful environment targets, or even villain targets you want to keep around.  (Relic Spirits, anyone?)  I typically prefer to use more offensive effects, but this is nice if you get it for free.

Counterpoint Bulwark’s Perform shows real defensive power.  This can be crucial to keeping heroes alive long enough to deliver fatal blows.  This can potentially come in handy several times a round, saving far more net life than Rhapsody of Vigor.  As with Rhapsody of Vigor, he can use this to protect any other target.  The highest and lowest hit point heroes are an obvious choice, but protecting a villain’s nemesis or combining with other damage reduction is also strong.

Inspiring Supertonic’s Accompany can turn the Argent Adept into a makeshift tank – he can attach the ability to gain 2 hit points to his power phase, sometimes multiple times, thus increasing the damage the party can take.

Utility

The rest of his songs fall under the utility umbrella.  Of course, using extra plays and powers with the above cards can do this as well.  Drawing cards is a common function of utility.  Cedistic Dissonant’s Accompany helps get you deeper in cards, while Counterpoint Bulwark’s allows you to assist others. 

Sarabande of Destruction is king among utility, easily getting rid of the impediments that don’t have hit points.  The best thing about this card is that it offers power-based Environment destruction – invaluable in Atlantis and Megalopolis to solve Leaking Rooms and Hostage Situations quickly.

Inventive Preparation’s Perform is great for any effect that depends on the top of your deck, and a decent effect to get everybody closer to cards they want.  It is often overshadowed by the other rhythm Performs, but some cards make it worthwhile. 

Finally, Vernal Sonata simply grants a couple of nice effects while allowing your teammates to plan their turns better.  I’m fond of playing this, then using Counterpoint Bulwark’s Accompany, to allow a player to use the card they just got back right away.

Tactics

Your early game looks like this.  Lead off with one of your songs, so you can start performing.  Ideally, you follow with another song, giving you options, and then you go get an instrument that allows you to use them together. 

Arcane Cadence and Instrumental Conjuration, your deck manipulation suite, are fantastic.  Instrumental Conjuration gets you the right tool, while Arcane Cadence fills in the blanks.  People make a big deal of Arcane Cadence to play Arcane Cadence, and that’s nice, but I find it more time-consuming than earth-shattering.  You really only have to do that if you must have something particular right now, or if all of the other cards are useless.

By midgame, hopefully you’ve lined up a 3-4 songs next to a couple of instruments.  This is when you employ Polyphoric Flare and Alacritous Subdominant’s Accompany to use all the powers you have accumulated.  The Argent Adept’s strength is based on abusing extra powers.  He really earns his 3 rating when you’re trying to keep straight what you can do.  Another clarification: The Accompany of Alacritous Subdominant sticks around until after the power is used.  If, as a part of using that power, you get a chance to use another Harmony Accompany, then Alacritous Subdominant will still be there.  Play around with his options outside of a game so as to better familiarize yourself with his options in game.  Can you figure out how to activate all of his instruments and Vocalize in one turn?

Silver Shadow deserves a special mention.  Once you have an Accompany handy, Silver Shadow is simply a free activation, lending basic support while you keep playing out your songs and instruments.  If you flip a Silver Shadow while playing Arcane Cadence, consider yourself lucky.  Use that free Accompany, then you can play the card you just put into your hand!

Instruments

The instruments are mostly straightforward, so I’ll use this space to talk about which ones I tend to use.  I enjoy Xu’s Bell, since it offers simple 2-card combos with Rhythms, and allows for flexibility in Harmony Accompanies.  Telamon’s Lyra and Musaragni’s Harp are very strong, and they both do Harmony Perform – great with Inspiring Supertonic.

I’m not as keen on the instruments that use Melodies.  I don’t find their abilities as consistently useful as those on the Harmonies and Rhythms, and the Melodies have less flexibility.  Each of these instruments requires three cards in play to be good, which is sometimes difficult to achieve.  To really make it worth your time, one of those cards usually has to be Sarabande of Destruction.  If melodies are among the cards you have around, however, it is nice Conjure at least one of the Melody instruments to have it handy. 

Weaknesses

Without his songs and instruments, Argent Adept doesn’t get much done.  As such, he takes some time to set up, and suffers if he loses a bunch of stuff.  Alacritous Subdominant can mitigate this to some degree, accelerating his deployment and recovery. 

He also suffers from having the fewest base hit points in the game, making him an immediate target for the more unsavory types of villains and environments.  He has excellent defensive measures as described above, but they do require preparation.

Finally, he has very few attack methods.  Without allies to execute his commands and use his enhancements, he will have a difficult time bringing the game to a conclusion.

Teamups

This is what the Argent Adept is all about.  All heroes are better in a team with this guy.  Here follows a list of some of the best things I’ve seen, but really, as long as Argent Adept is noticeably improving the team’s performance, all is well.

Counterpoint Bulwark combines very well with any sort of damage redirection, like Legacy’s Lead from the Front, Wraith’s Smoke Bombs, or Unity’s Stealth Bot. 

Inspiring Supertonic is great to use after Legacy’s turn, to use Galvanize again.  This is noticeably better than Syncopated Onslaught in a big group, or with Unity.  Syncopated Onslaught, on the other hand, is better when some people don’t want the boost, most often Nightmist.

Scherzo of Frost and Flame is generally unimpressive compared to what else this guy can do, but if it becomes boosted, it’s much better.  It’s very compelling when aimed at Absolute Zero.

Alacritous Subdominant is great for everyone for any number of reasons, but it’s perhaps most great for Unity.  It allows her bots to come into play without having to jump through any hoops.  Unity also appreciates Rhapsody of Vigor the most, as it can bolster her bots.

Inventive Preparation is good with Nightmist in particular, allowing her to influence the effects of her spells.  Vernal Sonata can be used in the same way, or it can be used with effects that let everybody draw a card, like Legacy’s Bolster Allies, or Team Leader Tachyon.  This is also great if followed up by The Scholar’s Don't Dismiss Anything or Omnitron-X's Timeshift.


Edited by: flamethrower49 on Apr 10 2013 - 11:47am
Katsue
Katsue's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 5 days ago
Joined: Aug 28, 2012

My favourite mad combo is Vernal Sonata + Counterpoint Bulwark + Inventive Preparation + Inspiring Supertonic + Telamon's Lyra + Xu's Bell. Allow any other player to play any card in their discard pile. Oh, and everyone gets a hit point back as well, and other people get to stack their deck.

Speaking of Vernal Sonata, it's an absurd combo with Reclaim From the Deep.

Reckless
Reckless's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 day ago
PlaytesterInspiring Presence
Joined: May 17, 2012

True that.  You know what else is an absurd combo with Reclaim from the Deep?

...

Reclaim from the Deep. smiley

Seems like a solid guide.  My group has gotten more out of Rhapsody of Vigor than Syncopated Onslaught or Counterpoint Bullwark, but it's rather hard to name the worst card in a deck when practically all of them are good.


Ra, God of the Fun
Draw, God of the Sun
The Matriarch's Psychic damage is her forcing a gratuitous amount of Snapple facts about birds into a hero's brain.

LCinn
LCinn's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 3 months ago
Joined: May 11, 2012

That `figure out how to use all instruments and his base power in one turn' challenge really does help with getting a grip on his abilities. If you're reading this to figure out how the hell to play the AA, get your cards right now and try it!

Overal a really nice guide, though a little table with song and instrument effects might have actually been appropriate here.

One of the rules of thumb I like to give new AA players, besides the 'play a song or two before playing an instrument' thing, is that you don't really need instruments for melodies, rythms have both great performs and accompanies, and harmonies have amazing performs and accompanies that are more of a bonus, and rate the instruments with that in mind:

-the bell is amazing because of its flexibility and being able to be used with just one song

-the lyre is great, but needs a rythm and a harmony

-the harp never hurts, but often is 'just' a free harmony accompany

-the drum is ok, makes using your situational melodies more fun.

-the horn is so-so, like the drum but with less exciting harmony accompanies instead of rythm accompanies

-the pipes are very situational. If you could use them with only one melody card, they would be really great, but sadly enough you need two.

Oh, and that there's only one copy of each instrument, which is actually pretty unique and something people often miss the first time (though the amazing instrumental conjuration makes sure this hardly ever becomes an actual problem).

 

Ameena
Ameena's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 37 min ago
Joined: Oct 15, 2012

I've been playing the Adept quite a lot lately. I like that he's so versatile, and I think the number of times I've ever used him to deal damage is less than five. Certainly less than ten, anyway. Inspiring Supertonic is probably the song I play the most, since if I have any other songs (and instruments) out, I usually use its Perform (with the harp) to let myself do something else and regain 2hp. Using the Pipes with both copies of Rhapsody of Vigour is cool to heal people up - mixing that with Supertonic means the Adept gets to regain 4hp a turn. That's fun and I have actually done that before :D. I tend to use Arcane Cadence quite a lot in the early game, to get some stuff out, but later on I prefer Silver Shadow, or Vernal Sonata if people need to get stuff out of their trash (the +1hp from it doesn't hurt either). Getting set up can be a pain, since it can take a long time to get all the songs and instruments out, but as long as you have a handful of stuff in play you can at least be helpful. I've never really used Counterpoint Bulwark's damage soak ability before - I tend to go for letting other people do stuff (draw/play etc) or buffing their damage, but considering this weekend we beat everyone except the Matriarch, who beat us (stupid Mystical Defenses :P) and then we had another go after we'd finished beating everyone else and then she beat us again, I think this might be a good idea...


I am the Wordweaver...

Basically, I like writing stuff ;)

Reckless
Reckless's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 day ago
PlaytesterInspiring Presence
Joined: May 17, 2012

On the subject of AA's Instruments, does anyone know why they aren't Relics?  It's especially confusing since he's from the Infernal Relics expansion.


Ra, God of the Fun
Draw, God of the Sun
The Matriarch's Psychic damage is her forcing a gratuitous amount of Snapple facts about birds into a hero's brain.

flamethrower49
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 6 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Apr 04, 2012

See?  Four responses, four different opinions.  This guy is more customizable than most.

I view Scherzo, Rhapsody, and Drake's Pipes as roughly on the same level.  Scherzo's damage pales in comparison to Adept's other options (usually Inspiring Supertonic or Alacritous Subdominant), but it's still damage, so it's fine in a pinch.  By itself, I see Rhapsody as merely delaying the inevitable, and it's hard to use Rhapsody with the things that make a huge difference (most specifically, Inspiring Supertonic and Alacritious Subdominant).  Double Rhapsody is good, though.  Reminds me of Cleansing Downpour, except it takes three cards to do.  Which is far more reasonable, really.

Reckless wrote:
My group has gotten more out of Rhapsody of Vigor than Syncopated Onslaught or Counterpoint Bullwark, but it's rather hard to name the worst card in a deck when practically all of them are good.

Rhapsody over Syncopated Onslaught really surprises me.  With the number of heroes whose powers increase manifold by the number of  boosts they can get, Syncopated Onslaught is a great deal.  These include, but are certainly not limited to, Tempest, Fanatic, Absolute Zero, Mr. Fixer, Expatriette, and now Chrono-Ranger and Omnitron-X as well. 

Rhapsody vs. Counterpoint Bulwark is a finer line that depends on the particular circumstance.  I use most of the offensive abilities over these, but sometimes you need defense.  In addition to finding the Rhythm easier to work into a routine, the protection applies to every attack that round.  This is supergood against villains or environments that attack a lot, especially if you can figure out who is going to get hit.  It saves two people from much more damage than the Rhapsody.

flamethrower49
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 6 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Apr 04, 2012

Reckless wrote:

On the subject of AA's Instruments, does anyone know why they aren't Relics?  It's especially confusing since he's from the Infernal Relics expansion.

Because Equipment, Relic, Instrument took up too much space?

Reckless
Reckless's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 day ago
PlaytesterInspiring Presence
Joined: May 17, 2012

flamethrower49 wrote:

 

Reckless wrote:
On the subject of AA's Instruments, does anyone know why they aren't Relics?  It's especially confusing since he's from the Infernal Relics expansion.

 

Because Equipment, Relic, Instrument took up too much space?

That's my guess, too.  But it does seem to be an appropriate keyword.  I'm sure the >G crew has an in-canon reason, though.


Ra, God of the Fun
Draw, God of the Sun
The Matriarch's Psychic damage is her forcing a gratuitous amount of Snapple facts about birds into a hero's brain.

Matchstickman
Matchstickman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 hours 33 min ago
Playtester
Joined: Apr 10, 2012

Because having so many of his instruments out after an Apocalpyse or End of Days would just be overpowered?

A single card (like Staff of Ra) being out after clearing the board is fine, but leaving the Argent with his complete set up ready to go?


Stop lurking, it makes you look like a villain target
When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all

Temporary image until an H emoticon is added!

Ameena
Ameena's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 37 min ago
Joined: Oct 15, 2012

I'd consider Rhapsody a viable alternative to Bulwark when you're against Plague Rat, even more so if everyone's Infected - you can't reduce the damage but you can cancel it out by healing it back, buying more time for everyone else to kick his arse. Plus Rhapsody affects more targets, so you can heal the whole team rather than give soak to two of them.


I am the Wordweaver...

Basically, I like writing stuff ;)

Reckless
Reckless's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 day ago
PlaytesterInspiring Presence
Joined: May 17, 2012

Matchstickman wrote:

Because having so many of his instruments out after an Apocalpyse or End of Days would just be overpowered?A single card (like Staff of Ra) being out after clearing the board is fine, but leaving the Argent with his complete set up ready to go?

I could see that.  I'm able to come up with a lot of mechanical reasons, but I'm having trouble grasping it from a thematic standpoint.  But destroying all of his Ongoings would still set him back pretty far.


Ra, God of the Fun
Draw, God of the Sun
The Matriarch's Psychic damage is her forcing a gratuitous amount of Snapple facts about birds into a hero's brain.

Christopher
Christopher's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 33 min ago
AdminGame Designer
Joined: Aug 01, 2011

It was never intended for the instruments to be relics, because the instruments are not Relics, in that they are not items of great power. They are "relics" in that they are really old, probably priceless things. But they have no innate power of their own. Now, a Virtuoso of the Void can gain much knowledge from an instrument of a previous Virtuoso of the Void, so they are useful, but ultimately the power comes from the Virtuoso and how said Virtuoso uses the instrument. Whereas the Relics in Sentinels of the Multiverse are all items of great, innate power.

Hope this helps! 


"Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting;
but never hit soft."
          - Theodore Roosevelt

flamethrower49
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 6 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Apr 04, 2012

Ameena wrote:
I'd consider Rhapsody a viable alternative to Bulwark when you're against Plague Rat, even more so if everyone's Infected - you can't reduce the damage but you can cancel it out by healing it back, buying more time for everyone else to kick his arse. Plus Rhapsody affects more targets, so you can heal the whole team rather than give soak to two of them.

A good example - life gain is better than damage reduction against a purveyor of irreducible damage.  However, and this is my point, Plague Rat deals a lot of damage, really quickly.  It will take more than a few uses of Rhapsody of Vigor to really make a difference in how quickly he kills you.  You're far better off killing him quickly than trying hold him off.

Reckless
Reckless's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 day ago
PlaytesterInspiring Presence
Joined: May 17, 2012

Bam!  He does it again!  Thanks for the info, Christopher!  That makes sense and adds to our ever-growing knowledge of the Multiverse.


Ra, God of the Fun
Draw, God of the Sun
The Matriarch's Psychic damage is her forcing a gratuitous amount of Snapple facts about birds into a hero's brain.

Ameena
Ameena's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 37 min ago
Joined: Oct 15, 2012

I dunno, regarding Plague Rat - say everyone's Infected, so he's flipped. Every player will be doing themselves one point of irreducible toxic damage every turn. Rat himself also deals out one point of irreducible melée damage at the end of his turn. At the start of his turn, he also deals a point of normal toxic damage, I think. This, at least, can be redirected and soaked. So you have everyone otherwise taking two points of irreducible damage every round. If Legacy's around, he can't use Next Evolution and Lead from the Front to block the Infection damage because that's dealt by the heroes, and in fact having Legacy around might be a bad thing 'cause if he buffs everyone's damage then they'll just be hurting themselves even more. Anyway, of the Adept dedicates himself to countering those two points of damage every turn by healing them back, heis at least completely nullifying most of what Plague Rat can do (not counting for all those horrible damaging one-shots he has :P). If he's got enough instruments and stuff out, that doesn't even need to be all he can do, since he can let himself use other powers first (or heal everyone with Polyphoric Flare before his power phase even starts) and so still have other uses. Meanwhile if you've got people out who are good at dishing out damage (such as Haka, Ra, and Expatriette), they basically get an extra load of rounds in which to do it in and can focus on that while the Adept takes care of the healing (or at least some of it).

But yeah, other than in cases like that, and depending on which heroes are out, there are other things you can sing besides Rhapsody. Letting Tempest use a power if he has Cleasning Downpour out is probably a better alternative if everyone needs healing, for example.


I am the Wordweaver...

Basically, I like writing stuff ;)

phantaskippy
phantaskippy's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 hours 47 min ago
Playtester
Joined: Jan 26, 2013

Argent adept is my favorite hero.  He was the first one I played, and I've been in love with him since.

Letting other heroes use a power out of turn is so much better than even Fanatic's Embolden (although Embolden on AA is just easy mode).

The hardest thing I've faced is getting people to understand how good returns on investing in AA are.  Incapacitated Hero can let another hero use a power out of turn?  Seriously if you don't pick AA for that you are simply hurting the team, he can rattle off his entire combo again, and that hero you chose instead could have still used a power.

My absolute favorite duo with AA is Tempest.  With the versatility and Tempests sheer power when he is built up this duo can heal through almost anything, or with Localized hurricane feed Tempest cards if needed.  Helping Haka build his hand or get his cards in play, or Legacy, or anyone really.

AA is my pick for teh best Hero in the game.  He doesn't need to do damage, he's there to win.

Edit:  sorry for necro.  followed the link from the sticky.  Gah.

flamethrower49
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 6 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Apr 04, 2012

No need to worry about necroing these threads.  They are here for relevant discussion of the topic.  Thanks for the insight!

ketigid
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 20 hours ago
Joined: Oct 11, 2011

phantaskippy wrote:

Letting other heroes use a power out of turn is so much better than even Fanatic's Embolden (although Embolden on AA is just easy mode).

What you need is 2 Embolden on AA. :)

flamethrower49
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 6 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Apr 04, 2012

Touched up some language and filled in the redacted part.  Inventive Preparation is good with Scholar and Omnitron-X.

Spiff
Spiff's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 10 hours ago
PlaytesterExceeded ExpectationsUnique Capabilities
Joined: Sep 09, 2011

I'll say it again - this topic is for discussion of Flamethrower's AA guide, not for a general discussion of what you like/dislike about AA or your favorite combo, etc.  In order to keep things clean, we should consider taking that kind of discussion to its own topic so that this can remain about the guide itself.


Spiff's SotM site: www.spiffworld.com/sotm
Spiff's Tactics site: www.spiffworld.com/tactics

Pydro
Pydro's picture
Online
Last seen: 3 min 54 sec ago
ModeratorPlaytester
Joined: May 19, 2012

I think the community is growing so much, that it might be time to give each hero/villian its own mini forum. Link guides, talk about favorite combos, and put any ruling specific to cards in those decks.


Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
-Robert E. Howard, "The Tower of the Elephant"

cmschex
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 2 hours ago
Playtester
Joined: Feb 02, 2013

Pydro wrote:

I think the community is growing so much, that it might be time to give each hero/villian its own mini forum. Link guides, talk about favorite combos, and put any ruling specific to cards in those decks.

 

I think that would be an awesome idea

Splurgendii
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 05, 2013

Pydro wrote:

I think the community is growing so much, that it might be time to give each hero/villian its own mini forum. Link guides, talk about favorite combos, and put any ruling specific to cards in those decks.

 

I agree

have seperate threads for heros been made since this post?

If so would somebody please direct me?

MestersJester
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 15, 2013

I have a very simple question which I don't think is too off topic because I was hoping to get an answer from the guide (maybe the question is too simple for this guide). 

When you activate an instrument's power, is it required to have both perform and accompany types in play? eg, if an instrument says activate a perform on a Melody and an accompany on a Rhythym, do you have to have both to use the intrument's power?

If you don't have the first (perform), can you still use second (accompany) part of the power?

Also, you must use the perform and accompany in the order listed, correct?

Thanks!

dypaca
dypaca's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 5 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Jun 05, 2012

It would be better to start a new topic for these questions.

If you don't have both of the things that an instrument activates then you can still use the instrument.  You will just activate what you do have in play.  however you must activate both kinds of text if you use the instrument and they are available.  You also have to do them in the order on the card.

Splurgendii
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 05, 2013

Dypaca?

Wouldn't it be the case that if the creators did intend for the instruments to work IN order then the card would say so?
As in... Perform a perform text "AND THEN" perform an accompany?

Seems like a too overly important mechanic to of accidentally left out.

Foote
Foote's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 1 day ago
PlaytesterHarmony
Joined: Apr 09, 2013

Splurgendii wrote:

Dypaca?Wouldn't it be the case that if the creators did intend for the instruments to work IN order then the card would say so?As in... Perform a perform text "AND THEN" perform an accompany?Seems like a too overly important mechanic to of accidentally left out.

Are you really trying to make a distinction between "and" and "and then"? That's a very dangerous road my friend. 

Spiff
Spiff's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 10 hours ago
PlaytesterExceeded ExpectationsUnique Capabilities
Joined: Sep 09, 2011

It's a logical distinction.  "And" implies simultaneity while "and then" implies seriality.  However since nothing in the game is simultaneous, all "ands" have to be read as "and then", so the distinction which would normally be fine, isn't useful in the game.


Spiff's SotM site: www.spiffworld.com/sotm
Spiff's Tactics site: www.spiffworld.com/tactics

Foote
Foote's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 1 day ago
PlaytesterHarmony
Joined: Apr 09, 2013

Spiff wrote:

However since nothing in the game is simultaneous, all "ands" have to be read as "and then", so the distinction which would normally be fine, isn't useful in the game.

That is a bit of a misconception Spiff. There are simultaneous actions! Says so in the rulebook. Thats why card order is important. Just because effects do not resolve simultaneously does not mean they are not in fact simultaneous.

Spiff
Spiff's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 10 hours ago
PlaytesterExceeded ExpectationsUnique Capabilities
Joined: Sep 09, 2011

I suppose that's true, although it's a semantic rather than practical distinction.  I see your point though.


Spiff's SotM site: www.spiffworld.com/sotm
Spiff's Tactics site: www.spiffworld.com/tactics

Foote
Foote's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 1 day ago
PlaytesterHarmony
Joined: Apr 09, 2013

Spiff wrote:

I suppose that's true, although it's a semantic rather than practical distinction.  I see your point though.

More or less. Effectivly you resolve everything as if simultaneous actions do not exist at all. But it is an important distinction as you need to know what effects are considered "simultaneous" or not when you are considering timing of complex interactions.

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

What's an example of a simultaneous effect, then?


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

PlatinumWarlock
PlatinumWarlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 11 sec ago
Joined: Feb 10, 2013

Expatriette's Assault rifle deals 3 targets 2 projectile damage each.

This happens "simultaneously", but for the sake of reason (and sanity), it can't really be simultaneous.  So, you pick your targets in whatever order you want, resolving each as you go.  If target A was providing damage reduction to targets B and C, but dies after taking the damage, the latter targets no longer get DR.  

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

I don't see how that's simultaneous at all.  Since each shot is resolved one at a time, they're sequential.  They just all happen within the space of one Power.


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

PlatinumWarlock
PlatinumWarlock's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 11 sec ago
Joined: Feb 10, 2013

If they happened simultaneously, B and C would still receive the damage reduction.  It's only because they're resolved in sequence (in the player's choice of order) that A can be killed first.

Spiff
Spiff's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 10 hours ago
PlaytesterExceeded ExpectationsUnique Capabilities
Joined: Sep 09, 2011

I don't see how that's simultaneous at all.

Think of it this way: the rules tell you how to handle simultaneous actions (you handle them sequentially).  If there were no simultaneous actions, there would be no need for that rule.

Example:  when you reach the end-of-turn phase for the villain, all of the end-of-turn effects on villain cards are triggered simultaneously (there aren't multiple end-of-turn phases, just one, which triggers everything at once).  However, the rules say that when simultaneous actions happen, you will deal with them in a non-simultaneous manner.  So when people say "nothing is really simultaneous in this game", they're referring to how simultaneous actions are handled, not that there aren't actually simultaneous events in the game, which there absolutely are.  It's a subtle, academic distinction, but it's a real one.


Spiff's SotM site: www.spiffworld.com/sotm
Spiff's Tactics site: www.spiffworld.com/tactics

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

The way I figured it, those end-of-turn effects don't trigger simultaneously, they trigger one at a time in card-play order during the rather long "end of turn phase".  (I'm from Magic, so I'm accustomed to such temporal absurdities.)


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

Foote
Foote's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 week 1 day ago
PlaytesterHarmony
Joined: Apr 09, 2013

Envisioner wrote:

The way I figured it, those end-of-turn effects don't trigger simultaneously, they trigger one at a time in card-play order during the rather long "end of turn phase".  (I'm from Magic, so I'm accustomed to such temporal absurdities.)

Right. I hear you. I was a magic player for a long time. It took a while to break myself of the habit of assuming if it's true for one then it must be of the other. I always got myself into trouble thinking that way. 

Splurgendii
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 05, 2013

Had a good game today... made one great, power play that left me feeling very satisfied.
Had both Bulwark and Inventive Preperation on the field along with the Bell... already pretty strong.
Along with that; in hand I had a Silver Shadow and a Cadence.

Play Silver Shadow to active inventive preperation's accompany: Let another play play a card out of turn.
Silver Shadow's effect; play a card afterward if I can... I use that effect to play a Cadence.

In the cadense I choose to activate a vernal sonata to help a Wraith player draw her blowdrier card.

 

At which point I then proceed to my power face and used it on my bell
Perform on inventive prep to allow the entire team to top card ~ choose to replace or discard
and the accompany of bulwark to allow the wraith player to immediately draw her card for her next turn.

Don't know if it was the best move, it felt satisfying none the less.

 

Splurgendii
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 05, 2013

Foote wrote:

 

Splurgendii wrote:
Dypaca?Wouldn't it be the case that if the creators did intend for the instruments to work IN order then the card would say so?As in... Perform a perform text "AND THEN" perform an accompany?Seems like a too overly important mechanic to of accidentally left out.

 

Are you really trying to make a distinction between "and" and "and then"? That's a very dangerous road my friend. 

 

really?
Perhaps its my naivete that makes the distinction feels trivial.

As others have stated in the above posts, its clear that there are many instances in any game when several "things occur simoutaneously" in which the order of resolution is left up for the players to dictate.

I think it's the exact same case when dealing with Argent's instruments.
From the literal texts of the instruments, I think it's clear that the card has a perform and accompany text be activated simultaneously.

If it's up to the players to decide the order in which villain cards' end-turn effects are played during the end phase of the villain due to them activating simultaneously, then I think it makes perfect sense to apply the same rule of thum to argent in allowing the player to decide which text's effects to resolve first and which second.
 

Pydro
Pydro's picture
Online
Last seen: 3 min 54 sec ago
ModeratorPlaytester
Joined: May 19, 2012

Splurgendii wrote:

As others have stated in the above posts, its clear that there are many instances in any game when several "things occur simoutaneously" in which the order of resolution is left up for the players to dictate.

You only get to choose the order when a single effect will have simultaneous results. For example, if a card says deal 2 damage to 3 targets, you can choose the order the targets take the damage. However, if there are multiple effects that would happen "simultaneously", then they happen in the order they came into play. If they are on a single card, the card happens in order. For example, with Wrest the Mind, first the target takes damage, then Visonary. This order is very specific, so that the Visionary won't take damage if the target is destroyed first.

Splurgendii wrote:

If it's up to the players to decide the order in which villain cards' end-turn effects are played during the end phase of the villain due to them activating simultaneously

All cards that have an end-of-turn effect have to happen in the order that there came into play. Players cannot choose the order in which they activate.


Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
-Robert E. Howard, "The Tower of the Elephant"

Splurgendii
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 05, 2013

well then...

I have to ask... I don't personally own the game, is the rule as you stated written within the rulebook?

I'd hate to have something so important to be left up to interpretations...

Drakossozh
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Joined: Mar 10, 2013

If you'd like, I believe there is a copy of the rulebook up on Spiff's website :) You can go check it out there.

Rabit
Rabit's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 hours 39 min ago
ModeratorPlaytester
Joined: Aug 08, 2011

Actually, the rulebook is available on the official downloads page.

Spiff's site does have his "Rules and Clarifications" document, which is very shiny, but it's not the official rulebook. smiley


"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart." - Mal

Until we have an H emoticon:

Splurgendii
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 05, 2013

Use all the instruments & vocalize in one turn, one way to do this... are there better ways?
This is coming from the OP's statement that Subdominant's accompany can be used multiple timesin one turn.
(pardon the absence of the proper names for the instruments and certain cards, don't own the game nor have I committed them to memory)

 

Requirements: Inspiring supertonic and alactritous subdominant and a polyphoric flare.  (That's it).

Card play phase:
Use Polyphoric Flare oneshot: Take two damage and use a power immediately
Use power to play the harp.

Play the harp ~ Perform of Supertonic and Accompany of subdominant~ 2 powers to use.
Play one power on the guitar and one power on the bell.

Play the Guitar ~ Perform of Supertonic again and the accompany of any rhythem card of the players choice, if any are present.
Play the Bell~ Perform of any Rhythem card if any are present and play the accompany of dubdominant again.

Once again, 2 powers to use~ one on the drums and one on the horn.
Play the Drums~ use if any melody performs or rhythem accompanies if any are present
Play the Horn~ Any melody that may be present, then for the 3rd time, use the accompany of subdominant to gain another power.

power: Use on the flutes ~ any two melodies of the players choice...
End of Card playing Phase

Beginning of Powerphase
Power Phase: Vocalize.

Net gain:
Two Rhythem accompanies
One Rhythem Perform
Four Melodies
One Vocalize
 

Ameena
Ameena's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 37 min ago
Joined: Oct 15, 2012

Yes, you can use Perform and Accompany texts multiple times from the same card in a single turn (if you have the means to do so), as they aren't powers - the instruments are powers, so you'd only be able to use each of those once (plus Vocalise), but you can use the songs as many times as you like :).


I am the Wordweaver...

Basically, I like writing stuff ;)

Splurgendii
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: Sep 05, 2013

Ameena wrote:

Yes, you can use Perform and Accompany texts multiple times from the same card in a single turn (if you have the means to do so), as they aren't powers - the instruments are powers, so you'd only be able to use each of those once (plus Vocalise), but you can use the songs as many times as you like :).

 

who's asking?

Ameena
Ameena's picture
Offline
Last seen: 15 hours 37 min ago
Joined: Oct 15, 2012

Well, you said "This is coming from the OP's statement that Subdominant's accompany can be used multiple times in one turn", implying that you weren't sure whether it was an official rule or not and were just going by what someone else has said. I just thought I'd confirm that it is :).


I am the Wordweaver...

Basically, I like writing stuff ;)

Envisioner
Envisioner's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 9 months ago
Joined: Aug 29, 2013

There isn't a Guitar, sadly (it's actually Telamon's Lyra, which is actually a lute not a lyre, and a lute resembles a ukelele more than a guitar).  Maybe we'll get a promo future version of AA who has one.

More importantly, though, the Subdominant is destroyed after the resolution of the power it gives you...I'm not saying it's impossible to get it used three times, but double-check that you have the timing right.


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

dypaca
dypaca's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 5 months ago
Playtester
Joined: Jun 05, 2012

Envisioner is right, the key to using a single copy of Subdominant multiple times is the idea that it isn't destroyed until you fully resolve the power it grants you, and that each of Adepts extra powers are resolved now.  (Meaning that if one power grants you another power, that new power is resolved before the first one is considered finished, or even before it activates a second song if the first activation granted the power).

So in your example of the instruments in that order, Harp -> supertonic -> Lyra/guitar -> supertonic -> Bell -> subdominant -> drum  would work, but then the subdominant would be destroyed after the Bell was done and before the Harp could activate it.  You can do essentially the same thing though, if you swap the order of the drums and the bell.

Of course, alternatively your are free to house rule all of his 'use a power now' to be 'use an extra power this turn' (which is how Splurgendii seems to resolve them), but then that kind of undermines the justification for being able to use one Subdominant multiple times.

 

Pages