Can you take 0 damage?

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Envisioner
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Can you take 0 damage?

If damage is reduced to 0, is it still considered to have been dealt, for the purposes of secondary effects attached to it?  For instance, The Chairman's Corrupt Cops reduce damage by 1, so if Tachyon deals 1 damage to The Operative and The Muscle, but that damage is reduced to 0, are they still "targets dealt damage this way", who would thus lose the ability to deal damage until Tachyon's next turn?


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

dpt
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No, in that case they are not "targets dealt damage this way".  Have you checked Spiff's FAQ at http://www.spiffworld.com/sotm/files/sotm_rules_and_clarifications.pdf ?  It's a collection of official rulings.

Envisioner
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Another damage-related question.  When damage is redirected between Heroes, how do you apply effects which reduce it?  For instance, 5 damage is dealt to Tempest while he has Otherworldly Resilience, but Legacy uses Lead from the Front to take that damage, and Legacy has Fortitude (which is the same card as Otherworldly Resilience).  Is the damage reduced by 4 when it's dealt to Tempest, then redirected to Legacy?  Is it dealt to Legacy and reduced by 1?  Or is it reduced twice?

On the same subject, if Legacy has Fortitude and Superhuman Durability, can he start by taking 5 damage, reduce it by 3 with Durability, and then reduce it by 1 more with Fortitude?  Or does he have to choose one effect to apply?  Or do the two effects go in card order (so the final damage would be 2 if Fortitude was newer and 4 if it was older)?


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
--David Brin, "Brightness Reef"

Nielzabub
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I do believe that the current ruling is that they happen in play order. If Durability is out first, then you can reduce damage with it and then furter reduce the damage with Fortitude, but if Fortitude is out first, then you apply its damage reduction first.


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phantaskippy
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Key to remember whenever you play at home is it is perfectly fine to go heroes choice in timing and use both.

The current official ruling is that simultaneous card effects (like Durability and Fortitude) are resolved in the order the cards entered play.  If you don't track that just choose the order.

As for redirection any time damage is redirected it has to recheck for reduction, only reduction that applies to the final target actually lowers the final damage dealt.

dpt
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Envisioner wrote:

Another damage-related question.  When damage is redirected between Heroes, how do you apply effects which reduce it?  For instance, 5 damage is dealt to Tempest while he has Otherworldly Resilience, but Legacy uses Lead from the Front to take that damage, and Legacy has Fortitude (which is the same card as Otherworldly Resilience).  Is the damage reduced by 4 when it's dealt to Tempest, then redirected to Legacy?  Is it dealt to Legacy and reduced by 1?  Or is it reduced twice?

Nobody's answered this part yet.  The conditional bonuses are lost when the condition is no longer met, so Tempest's bonus is lost when it is redirected to Legacy and then reduced by 1, so Legacy takes 4 damage.

(There's been a lot of discussion about exactly how this happens recently, but I hope this answer isn't controversial.)

Foote
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dpt wrote:

 

Envisioner wrote:
Another damage-related question.  When damage is redirected between Heroes, how do you apply effects which reduce it?  For instance, 5 damage is dealt to Tempest while he has Otherworldly Resilience, but Legacy uses Lead from the Front to take that damage, and Legacy has Fortitude (which is the same card as Otherworldly Resilience).  Is the damage reduced by 4 when it's dealt to Tempest, then redirected to Legacy?  Is it dealt to Legacy and reduced by 1?  Or is it reduced twice?

 

Nobody's answered this part yet.  The conditional bonuses are lost when the condition is no longer met, so Tempest's bonus is lost when it is redirected to Legacy and then reduced by 1, so Legacy takes 4 damage.(There's been a lot of discussion about exactly how this happens recently, but I hope this answer isn't controversial.)

Yes. Tempest's DR is only for Tempest.

The Superhuman / Forte interaction is a very heavily debated one as DPT pointed out. It mostly comes down to >G giving an official ruling on the matter, and then all of the other rulings that pertain to damage modification (like redirection, imbued fire, immuities, ect) directly conflict with the ruling. (Officialy, SHD/Forte is decided by play order).

I think a majority of forumites disregard the official SHD/Forte ruling because of how much needless complexity it adds (Edit: very speculative. grains of salt and whatnot). It is a much tighter game when the Trigger of "Whenever you would be dealt X damage" is dependant on first figuring out the damage you actually "would" have taken if that Trigger did not exist in play. To that end, considering all damage modifications first is the extension of that idea.

I can also cite ruling about card effects and triggers to support that interpretation. Card order is important only when triggered effects are simultanious (like Voss having multiple minions with EndOfTurn effects, you do those in order they were played). If we go by the official SUD/Forte ruling, it stands to reason that those must both be simultanious triggers, correct?

But that is not how damage modification effects have been described. Adam has been quoted as describing the damage modification effects on Imbued Fire (type change and damage increase) as "static effects" that are "always on" once they are played. It stands that from Adams take on mechanics, that damage mods are Triggered when the card enters play. That distinction is very important, because if the effect is triggered upon the card being played, then Fort can't be simultaniously triggered with SHD, meaning that card order would not matter in the end and Legacy would take 4 damage no matter what order you played the cards.

I know this topic is talked about to death on the forums. It comes up constantly. But the core issue is one of timing. Are damage modifications only triggered upon damage dealt (supported by Christophers initial ruling) or are they "static" effects that are triggered when they are played (supported by Adams clarifications on Imbued Fire and other general interactions).

Sorry for the wall of text, and I hope this gives a more concise breakdown of the debate so that you can make your own decision on how to play.

phantaskippy
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I think a majority of forumites disregard the official SHD/Forte ruling because of how much needless complexity it adds 

Yes.

The whole card order thing is conflict resolution.  I find it much easier to view rduction and redirection as not conflicting.  If the damage is five, reduce it then reduce it some more if appropriate, at any time in there if it qualifies for redirection and you want to redirect do it.

I let heroes benefit themselves as much as possible, but then if Iron Legacy has reduction and superhuman redirection out, I resolve it in the way that best helps him.

I imagine that very few heroes or villains have super powers that conflict with each other.  (Ra's Solar Flare/Flesh of the Sun God/Imbued Fire do)  and that Iron Legacy and Legacy aren't going to be unable to defend themselves as well because they defend themselves better.  That just doesn't make sense.

If all heroes are going to be dealt 7 damage and Tempest has shielding winds and Legacy has Durability/Fortitude/Lead from the Front then he can take everyone's damage and reduce it all from each of those cards (winds first to keep it at five for Durability.

It makes sense thematically, saves the effort of keeping track of play order through multiple hero's cards, and just seems more fun.

I really don't think you could explain the situation better than Foote did.