Bonuses with Untouchable/Empowerment question

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catDreaming
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Bonuses with Untouchable/Empowerment question

I just noticed that the wording on Untouchable is a bit odd, and am suddenly uncertain of how it interacts with bonuses. Also comes up in some Red zone abilities from Self Control.

Untouchable: When you would be dealt damage, roll a d4 while in the Green zone, d6 while in the Yellow, or d8 while in Red. Reduce the damage you take by the value rolled. Attack another target with that roll.

Empowerment: When you are Attacked, roll your single [power] die as a Defend against that Attack. Also Boost yourself with that same roll.

 

The underlying question:

- Is this another case of a bonus cannot be applied to more than one effect per action?


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Powerhound_2000
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The wording is inconsistent with untouchable and empowerment but I don't see why you couldn't use a bonus on either.   As for Empowerment I'd say the bonus only applies either to your defend or boost but not both.  


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catDreaming
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Would you say that a bonus used on Untouchable would apply to both reducing the damage and the Attack from it, or only one of the effects?


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Powerhound_2000
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One or the other. 


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catDreaming
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Fair enough. That's what I was leaning towards.


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Under3
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There is no rule that "a bonus can only apply to one effect per action." I think you might be confusing it with a bonus can only be applied to one effect die. 

An effect die is a specific term though rather than each individual effect - it's the die that is used to do the effect(s). If you have a mod and a die gets modified everything that die does is modified. For example if you attack multiple targets with your mid die, and you have a mod of +3 applied to your mid die every target hit take the hit with that +3. I see no reason why the mod wouldn't apply to both effects here too.

The rule that a mod can only apply to one effect die means if there's multiple effect die in a roll (such as attack with mid and hinder with min) you choose just one of those for the mod to apply to, which isn't the case in this example - in this situation there is only one effect die.

catDreaming
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Under3 wrote:
There is no rule that "a bonus can only apply to one effect per action." I think you might be confusing it with a bonus can only be applied to one effect die. 
An effect die is a specific term though rather than each individual effect - it's the die that is used to do the effect(s). If you have a mod and a die gets modified everything that die does is modified. For example if you attack multiple targets with your mid die, and you have a mod of +3 applied to your mid die every target hit take the hit with that +3. I see no reason why the mod wouldn't apply to both effects here too.
The rule that a mod can only apply to one effect die means if there's multiple effect die in a roll (such as attack with mid and hinder with min) you choose just one of those for the mod to apply to, which isn't the case in this example - in this situation there is only one effect die.

Unforunately, I have to disagree. We specifically have a ruling from the Letters Page as follows:

WalkingTarget notes wrote:

The rules for Mods say that they affect the single Effect Die that’s being used in the action taken; but what if there are multiple effects that are keyed on the same Effect Die (say, you Overcome with Mid, but also take a Minor Twist that you lose health equal to your Mid)? Does the Mod get applied for every effect or is it only applied to one? It gets split off for every effect. Like, the physical die number isn’t being changed, so if you have one Ability that has you do some Action with your Mid, but then you also use a Reaction that keys off of the Mid, a Bonus would only be applied to one of those two things leaving the unaltered die value in place for the remaining one.
You have to declare that you’re using a Bonus before your roll, but when do you declare which Effect Die you’re applying the Bonus to? Like, if you declare that you’re using a +2 Bonus on a Blinding Strike, do you also have to declare if you’re applying it to the Min or the Mid ahead of time, or can you see the results first? You get to pick where it goes after the roll, as long as you say you’re using it before the roll. It gets some strategic use if one Effect Die is doing an Overcome and you can see whether or not the Bonus would bump you up into a new category of success or not - if it wouldn’t you don’t need to “waste” your bonus on that effect if you have something else you can put it towards on the roll.

In it that very ruling that leads to this question. While there is only one 'effect die', there are multiple 'effects' that are using it.


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Under3
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I can't say I count the Letters Page as an authoritative voice on the rules, as Christopher has been known to make rules mistakes before and he has said that Cam is the better source for such rules queries (not sure if Cam had a guest appearance or not for these rules queries).

RAW it is how I stated rather than the Letters Page (each person hit is at its simplest a different effect, and that's explicitly stated in the rules to all use the same mod), however if their RAI is different, or they have declared that the Letters Page is to be considered an official clarifications/errata source, then we could do with an official FAQ put together (although considering the book hasn't even been released yet it should really have been in the rulebook already, not a good start).

drkrash1969
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I think the difference here is "effect."  An attack against multiple opponents is a single effect, and the Boost or Hinder applies to all of them.  But an Ability that, for example, both Recovers Health and Hinders the opponent with the Min die has 2 different effects, and the Boost or Hinder would only apply to one of them.

However, the rule is certainly ambiguous so that people can play it however they wish, because I doubt there will ever be a more "official" answer than the Letters Page one.  (As a publshed game designer, I make mistakes with my rules all the time; ANY source *could* be mistaken.)


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