Super Sentai Idealist Unlock Discussion

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MindWanderer
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Here's a failed unlock.  In fact, it's a couple of failed unlocks with the Undo's left in there.  I have no idea what we're even looking for at this point, but I did try to get a bunch of Concepts out with cards under them, and then clear all the cards out from all of them, with the last one being a big burst.

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Velvetisis
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I'm a little burnt out, but I have a theory if anyone wants to test it.

Play (H) Concepts.  For (H)*2 rounds in a row a card must move from under one concept to another, after which all cards must be removed from under all concepts in play in a single turn.

Update:  That wasn't it

Escher
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TakeWalker wrote:

So, to sum up the reddit AM5...

The unlock does not require more than 5 Concepts to be put into play. (But because the question was worded this way, we could still need to play 5 or more Concepts.)
The unlock does not require setting up a number of cards under Concepts before moving those cards around.
There is no minimum number of Fragments in the final step of the unlock.
When cards are removed from under a Concept, no part of the current board state outside the Idealist's play area affects whether the unlock condition is met. (For now; as a commenter notes, the Mecha-Knight could have an effect on this if you feel like using Oblivaeon for unlocks I guess.)
It does not matter if the cards under Concepts are Fragments specifically.

And that's it. Honestly don't feel like we learned a whole lot, though at least the second question negates the "2 under each Concept, them move them all under 1 Concept" theory. Which then leaves us back at square one?

Your point #2 is misleadingly stated, and your conclusion is dead wrong. The AM5 question was "Does the unlock require the set up of x number of cards under concepts before being moved around by either the Monster of the Id, Strained Superego or similar effect?" ("No.")

That does not necessarily negate the idea that we need to get X cards under five different concepts. The 'no' could equally mean they aren't required to be moved around by Superego or Id, which we already had determined -- I believe we had some unlocks where neither was ever in play. We aren't back at square one.

In fact, if we assume instead that we're on the right track with getting 5(?) concepts in play with 2(?) cards under each, then this part of the unlock might be a much simpler thing, like "Get 5 concepts in play with 2 cards under each, then remove all cards from under all concepts". (Probably with some other adjunct requirements to fit the 'build the body' idea.)

 

By the way, because some people may not have seen it, that particular question got some flak from MigrantP:

Does the unlock require the set up of x number of cards under concepts before being moved around by either the Monster of the Id, Strained Superego or similar effect?

MigrantP: "This question is too complicated so I need to think about whether it's yes or no. I recommend making your questions simpler. 'Cause, like, technically I have to say no because your question has too many qualifiers in it, so think about that! Make your questions more straight forward and you might get more information."

So it sounds like the 'No' answer in this case is a misleading 'no' -- the questioner is on the right track, but something fiddly in there was wrong.
 

Escher
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I just had a thought -- what if the requirement isn't an "each", but an "all"?  Like instead of  "Have 5 concepts in play with at least two cards under each", what if it's something like "Have at least 5 concepts in play with cards under them, and at least 10 (...12...15...) cards under concepts"?  And then you get rid of them all.

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Yeah, I tried to sum those up in a way that removed ambiguity, but I guess I failed. :/ I'm sorry.

Velvetisis
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tried several things, got 5 concepts out( 2 robots 2 heads and a knife), 2 under each, moved two cards out from knives under a robot.

 

Then I had a brilliant idea.  Use Better punching to let me use a power -> giant floating head's power to destroy one of the robots, power phase use the other head to destroy the other robot, at that point no cards under concepts, no unlock.

 

I think "ok, maybe you need to keep all 5 concepts out at the end".  Use super ego until there are only cards under one robot and two heads.  Play Better Punching -> one head.  Power phase -> other head.  Better punching goes under knives, super ego moves knives to robot, use super ego end of turn power phase on the robot, no dice.

 

So then I figure just let everything get under one robot, use the robot.  Do that, no unlock.

https://pastebin.com/a5wqzLcn

 

At this point I'm thinking 1 of 3 paths to start exploring. 1) minimum amount of damage dealt by idealist? 2) Some combination of playing Vivid thoughts and or Making things up (I didn't account for that when I looked through my steam success log) 3) there's a ratio of some kind. On my success I did it with 6 concepts 2 under each for a total of 12. Maybe if it drops down to five concepts each one needs 3 before they start getting blown through?

Velvetisis
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Success! https://pastebin.com/7F2YpZzN

 

Pretty much my plan going in was to prove if it could be done with 5 concepts.

I got 5 concepts out excluding the Id, got 3 cards under each this time and started moving them around. again I tried using better punching to clear things out as soon as I could. Better Punching -> Cat Head power to destroy a knives, power phase power to destroy the other Knives, BP! under a Cat, Superego moves BP! to Robot, use Robot, No unlock.

 

Again, maybe have to leave them all in play. Move cards around some more until only the cat heads and the robot have cards under them. Better punching -> Cat head power, better punching goes under one of the knives, power phase power -> cat head power, end of phase superego moves better punching to karate robot for a total of 11 cards under it now, use robot, unlock success!

 

Important difference this time: I only had 4 heroes.  so 5 concepts might be the number, or it might be (h+1) ....

Velvetisis
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so I propose:

Play a game with Void Guard Idealist.  H+1 Concepts must be put into play.  Cards must be put under concepts totalling at least 12, evenly spaced between the concepts.  Then in one turn remove all cards from under all concepts in play without destroying any concepts in play.

Things people can try to prove/disprove this:  Play a game with 3 heroes, play only 4 concepts, each with 4 cards under each of them before eliminating all cards under them.  Play a game with 4 heroes, put only 5 concepts into play, get a total of 12 under each card before moving them around and or eliminating them.

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Velvetisis wrote:

so I propose:

Play a game with Void Guard Idealist.  H+1 Concepts must be put into play.  Cards must be put under concepts totalling at least 12, evenly spaced between the concepts.  Then in one turn remove all cards from under all concepts in play without destroying any concepts in play.

Things people can try to prove/disprove this:  Play a game with 3 heroes, play only 4 concepts, each with 4 cards under each of them before eliminating all cards under them.  Play a game with 4 heroes, put only 5 concepts into play, get a total of 12 under each card before moving them around and or eliminating them.

 

I don't know if this is 100% accurate, but I did unlock her following this method. (H)=4. 15 cards under concepts, 13 fragments, 1 bored now from trash, and Monster of Id. 5 concepts out. Got 3 under each, then moved til I had 12 under karate robot, used power for the last 3 on cat head, then used her extra power use for karate robot. Unlocked when last card was removed from under it.

 

Team was Grandpa Legs, TL Tachyon, idealist, and Medico vs Ambuscade in Freedom Tower.

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MindWanderer
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I'm not quite sure if this log is what you expected, but it's not an unlock. H=3, put out 4 concepts and 4 cards under each. However, I cleared them out one at a time. MigrantP said it wasn't necessary to move cards from under cards to under other cards, and otherwise it's virtually impossible to clear them all out in one turn. I haven't ended the game yet, so I'll try loading them up again, putting the Superego back in play, and consolidating without putting a 5th concept out.

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payprplayn
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Velvetisis wrote:

so I propose:

Play a game with Void Guard Idealist.  H+1 Concepts must be put into play.  Cards must be put under concepts totalling at least 12, evenly spaced between the concepts.  Then in one turn remove all cards from under all concepts in play without destroying any concepts in play.

Things people can try to prove/disprove this:  Play a game with 3 heroes, play only 4 concepts, each with 4 cards under each of them before eliminating all cards under them.  Play a game with 4 heroes, put only 5 concepts into play, get a total of 12 under each card before moving them around and or eliminating them.

We had an unlock early on in which somebody destroyed a concept to get the unlock.

 

Edit: Well, at least I thought we did, but I just looked back and can't find it, so I guess I was mistaken.

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MindWanderer wrote:

MigrantP said it wasn't necessary to move cards from under cards to under other cards.

When did he say that?

Velvetisis
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payprplayn wrote:

 

Velvetisis wrote:

 

so I propose:

Play a game with Void Guard Idealist.  H+1 Concepts must be put into play.  Cards must be put under concepts totalling at least 12, evenly spaced between the concepts.  Then in one turn remove all cards from under all concepts in play without destroying any concepts in play.

Things people can try to prove/disprove this:  Play a game with 3 heroes, play only 4 concepts, each with 4 cards under each of them before eliminating all cards under them.  Play a game with 4 heroes, put only 5 concepts into play, get a total of 12 under each card before moving them around and or eliminating them.

 

We had an unlock early on in which somebody destroyed a concept to get the unlock.

 

Edit: Well, at least I thought we did, but I just looked back and can't find it, so I guess I was mistaken.

I've gone through a few of the logs (though not all) and it seems that the times that the unlock happened from either using bored now or the one time someone used Argent Adept the unlock happens before the concept is removed from play.    So I'm gonna propose now:

In a game with Void Guard Idealist play at least 5 ongoing concepts.  Cards must be put under concepts totalling at least 12, evenly spaced between all concepts in play.  Then in one turn remove all cards from under concepts while keeping at least 5 ongoing concepts in play.

I forgot my tablet otherwise I'd be trying to do more tests.  Another thing might be that it's not in one turn, it might be in one round?  So characters that can let her use powers, or characters that can destroy her cards may help?

MindWanderer
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Ensign53 wrote:

 

MindWanderer wrote:

 

MigrantP said it wasn't necessary to move cards from under cards to under other cards.

 

When did he say that?

Well, to be fair, that was what the person asking the question clearly intended, but MigrantP seems to have interpreted it in some different way.  I personally don't see how the question was vague, but he thought it was.  So maybe you actually do.

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MigrantP
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@MindWanderer - Please don't put words in my mouth.


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MindWanderer
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Well, here's the continuation of that attempt with H=3.  After failing the first time, I made sure 4 Concepts were in play, and no other Concepts had ever entered play (and let me tell you, it took some shenanigans to make sure the Monster of Id never came out in a game this long!).  Put 4 cards under each Concept.  Consolidated them all under one Concept using Superego, without any of those concepts leaving play, then popped it with Bored Now.  No unlock.

I suspect 5 Concepts is indeed the magic number, even with H=3, since we know it isn't more than 5.  How to get from there to the unlock, though, I have no idea.

Edit: To finish out that game and get on with my life, I rewound, played a 5th Concept, put 2 cards under it, consolidated them under the one that already had 16, and blew it up.  No unlock.  So I didn't put them all out and then consolidate.

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Velvetisis
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Ok!  3rd unlock!  https://pastebin.com/BjNLb4Bq

Things that happened: Got 5 copncepts out not including the Id (the id came out but I immediately got rid of it with GFH then put it under a Robot with the Tiara).  Got 3 cards under each.  Once I did that I tried what I did before: Better punching power - cat head - get rid of one of the other concepts.  Power Phase - cat head - get rid of another concept - end phase super ego uses robot power.  No unlock.

So then I wanted to try keeping 3 concepts under each while I built up one of the robots.  I got to 7 under the robot before I tried a thing.  Better punching -> use a cat head on NOT a concept.  (BP goes under this cat head afterwards) Power Phase -> cat head again to get rid of not a concept.  End Phase Super ego uses a Karate Robot.  Argent Adept's turn next.  Use one of his powers to let Idealist use the power on Knives, then destroys an instrument to destroy the last Robot -> UNLOCK.

So! I propose!:

In a game with Void Guard Idealist play 5 or more concepts, 5 of which must also be Ongoings.  At least 12 cards must be put under concepts with at least 2 under each concept in play.  Then in one round, keeping at least 5 Ongoing Concepts in play, all cards must be removed from under all concepts.

Or more simply

In a game with Void Guard Idealist play 5 or more concepts.  At least 12 cards must be put under concepts with at least 2 under each concept in play.  Then in one round, keeping at least 5 Concepts in play, all cards must be removed from under all concepts.

Things to test against:

I started adding cards before trying to do stuff with Argent Adept, so try removing all cards in one round as soon as either:

  • 11/12 cards are under concepts
  • if only putting out 5 concepts when 3 cards are under each

Try playing more than 5 concepts and destroy one as part clearing out cards to see whether 5 concepts need to be kept in play or ALL concepts need to be kept in play.

That's all I can think of at the moment.  I'll be checking in tomorrow.  Maybe I can use my wife's steam account to get a 4th unlock >.>

cokeandsympathy
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I think I correctly attempted your second criteria, Velvet, and didn't get the unlock. Log is attached. The turn in question is marked **HERE** in the text file - unless you want to read a really drawn out combat against Akash...

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ericmo32
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Starting to feel like everyone's given up. :(. I have no idea what else to contribute myself. 

Velvetisis
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ericmo32 wrote:

Starting to feel like everyone's given up. :(. I have no idea what else to contribute myself. 

That's kind of where I am too :/ Maybe if we get Mainstay hints next week we'll get Idealist questions the following week.  I feel like we're so close but there's something either really complex or REALLY simple that we're missing.

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ericmo32 wrote:

Starting to feel like everyone's given up. :(. I have no idea what else to contribute myself. 

It may not be for Idealist, but you can contribute questions for the Cosmic Inventor Writhe unlock right here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/sentinelsmultiverse/comments/9wr5n5/ask_me_5_things_void_guard_writhe_cosmic_inventor/?

I'm sure Idealist will get her turn in the coming weeks, if not next week. ;)

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I’m just going to throw something out here, but does the order the concepts are put into play important? Like, is it knives, robot, then head? 

Or had that theory been debunked? 


I THOUGHT I was the the last Scion but it's actually .....

Velvetisis
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I believe it's been debunked.

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I did a game where I got all the concepts out, put at least 15 fragments on the board (3 under each concept and Monster Id), then transferred them over to a Floaty Head. I used a Bored Now to keep the Id out of play after that, for the most part. Maybe something to the effect of:

In a game with Void Guard Idealist play 5 or more concepts.  At least 12 cards must be put under concepts with at least 2 under each concept in play.  Then in one round, keeping at least 5 Concepts in play, all cards must be removed from under all concepts. The Monster of Id cannot be in play.

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The PayneTrayne wrote:

I did a game where I got all the concepts out, put at least 15 fragments on the board (3 under each concept and Monster Id), then transferred them over to a Floaty Head. I used a Bored Now to keep the Id out of play after that, for the most part. Maybe something to the effect of:

In a game with Void Guard Idealist play 5 or more concepts.  At least 12 cards must be put under concepts with at least 2 under each concept in play.  Then in one round, keeping at least 5 Concepts in play, all cards must be removed from under all concepts. The Monster of Id cannot be in play.

I don't know if this is it, but I just got it doing this method.  I had 2 karate robots, 2 giant heads and 1 knife, with 4 cards under a karate robot and 2 under all the others. 

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I did it using almost this method. But I moved everything under Monster of Id, played Bored Now, and got the unlock.

ericmo32
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The PayneTrayne wrote:

I did a game where I got all the concepts out, put at least 15 fragments on the board (3 under each concept and Monster Id), then transferred them over to a Floaty Head. I used a Bored Now to keep the Id out of play after that, for the most part. Maybe something to the effect of:

In a game with Void Guard Idealist play 5 or more concepts.  At least 12 cards must be put under concepts with at least 2 under each concept in play.  Then in one round, keeping at least 5 Concepts in play, all cards must be removed from under all concepts. The Monster of Id cannot be in play.

 

Someone else blew up Monster of ID in their unlock, so I can say that part isn't true. I've also done the exact thing you just described with no unlock. 

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Did you move at least 10 fragments under a concept (for a total of 12+) before clearing the board, so to speak? Hmm...maybe another requirement is that Monster of Id must not have any fragments underneath it?

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The PayneTrayne wrote:

 Hmm...maybe another requirement is that Monster of Id must not have any fragments underneath it?

 

Don't believe so. They had Id as the one with all the cards under it, and the unlock triggered when they destroyed it. I think. I admit, all of these extremely similar attempts are starting to blur together badly. 

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Got an unlock, on the "all concepts in play must have some fragments below them, then consolidate, then clear the board" theory. Log attached.

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JohnnyFreedom
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I wonder if there is a condition required that is “in a game with five heroes...” since Idealist needs five heroes total to make up the components of the robot.

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Nope. Mine had 3.

Kratos13
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Sorry to be a pest, but is the Unlock button for Super Sentai supposed to be available now?  Haven’t unlocked her yet...

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Kratos13 wrote:

Sorry to be a pest, but is the Unlock button for Super Sentai supposed to be available now?  Haven’t unlocked her yet...

It's not available until the community discovers the exact conditions for the unlock. The only Void Guard hero that's applicable to right now is Doctor Medico.

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30 days after variant is released the unlock button is available to everyone if unlock conditions still aren’t found.  I believe that’s either today or tomorrow for this variant.  


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That's tomorrow. Can the community figure it out before that? =)


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Gonna find it hilarious if the first requested Void Guard variant takes the longest to unlock out of all of them. :3

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Phantom5613 wrote:

Gonna find it hilarious if the first requested Void Guard variant takes the longest to unlock out of all of them. :3

To be fair it's not like we're any closer with Writhe or Mainstay.


I'll put things in here later.

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Just to add my non-unlock game to the pile.

Idealist only played 6 cards total in this order: Stabby Knives, Monster of Id, Super Ego, Stabby Knives, Giant Floaty Head and Karate Robot. I used Idealist's base power to move fragments and only fragments underneath the concepts. Stabby Knives and Monster of Id traded fragments until at one point every concept had 2 fragments under it. Then I consolidated it under Monster of Id. Used Bored Now to destroy Monster of Id. No unlock.

Followed up by rewinding and putting some more fragments out to be swallowed up by Monster of Id until it had 15 under it, then used Bored Now. Still no unlock.

If the last theory is right, there's more to it than what we've seen so far.

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It seems like if only 5 concepts come out the magic number to get under each is 3, but if it's six or more then the magic number is 2.  I have no idea why.

Edit: or rather, I've only tried to get unlocks with 5 concepts getting 3 concepts under each.  I haven't tried doing a combination of 2s and 3s. but the least amount of cards destroyed (as far as I am aware) is 12 under 6 concepts then being moved around.  When I did one of my unlock with 5 concepts I had 3 under each, only moved 6 out from under 2 concepts, then used powers on the remaining 3 concepts to clear them all out.  My other unlock with 5 I had 3 under each, moved 4 around, then used 3 powers on Idealist's turn and one power and destroyed a card on Argent Adepts turn to get the unlock.

So the least amount of cards gotten rid of is 12 under 6 concepts, and the least amount of cards moved is 4 with 5 concepts and 3 under each.

Velvetisis
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What the heck, gonna propose:

In a game with Void Guard Idealist 5 concepts must enter play and must get an even amount of cards under them totalling more than 10.  Then in one round all cards must be cleared out from under all concepts.

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Velvetisis wrote:

In a game with Void Guard Idealist 5 concepts must enter play and must get an even amount of cards under them totalling more than 10.  Then in one round all cards must be cleared out from under all concepts.

Just gonna say, I can't disprove this with my knowledge but something does seem missing.


"2+2=4-1=3 Quick maths"

2+2=3

Velvetisis
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In a game with Void Guard Idealist 5 concepts must enter play and must get an equal amount of cards under them totalling more than 10.  Then in one round all cards must be cleared out from under all concepts.

Slight change in case the wording needed to be more clear?  I dunno.

Edit, just to throw this in, in case it's super simple:

In a game with Void Guard Idealist 5 concepts must enter play and at least 1 card must be placed under each, with a total of more than 10 cards under all concepts.  Then all cards must be removed from under all concepts in one round.

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Finally got the unlock. Built to 3 cards under 5 concepts, then tried the unlock in a few different angles. Removed all cards from under concepts in a single turn but if Id re-enters play mid-turn it didn’t count, which made it tricky, logistically, to explore the boundaries of “remove all cards” because Strained Superego allows a power after the draw phase but at this point all cards were in hand so Id always replayed itself before the final power wiped the third concept of cards. Finally with 14 cards under Id, 1 card under standby knives, played Bored Now to wipe Id then used power on Stabby Knives to wipe it, got the unlock after the entire power phase was resolved. There must be some clause that no new concepts may enter play, or all concepts in play must have had the equal share of cards under them at some point. 

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I played 5 concepts- Monster of Id, Headx2, Stabby knives and Karate Robot. Also Super Ego. Kept 1 card under each and then had 7 cards under Karate Robot. Then used America's Finest Legacy and Argent Adept to give Idealist multiple power uses and card plays to play Bored Now in one round. (on Legacy's and AA's turns) Monster of Id and one other concept was destroyed with Bored Now and power uses cleared off the other 3, including Karate Robot.

Besides those cards, I only played a few fragments to populate the concepts.

No unlock.

ericmo32
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So... seems like the machine has ground to a halt. Any chance of new hints?

MigrantP
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Plenty of hints have been given. I'm not planning to give any more if they're not going to be followed up on..


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ericmo32
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MigrantP wrote:

Plenty of hints have been given. I'm not planning to give any more if they're not going to be followed up on..

 

So, let's run with that then. Here's the hints I know of so far, if anyone can back me up with any I miss.

 

1) You must form the body before you form the head.

2) Reddit thread of yes/no's:

  • Does it matter whether, in the final event that triggers the unlock, the cards under the Concept are Fragments specifically? No
  • When cards are removed from under a Concept, does any part of the current board state outside of the Idealist's play area affect whether or not the condition is met?* No
  • Does the unlock require the set up of x number of cards under concepts before being moved around by either the Monster of the Id, Strained Superego or similar effect? No
  • Does the unlock require more than 5 concepts to have been put into play? No
  • Does the unlock require playing the tiara? No
  • Is there a minimum number of fragments in the final step of the unlock? No

 

TakeWalker
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Joined: Feb 26, 2016

I just look at those and feel like we have nothing to go on. :/ It's unfortunate this was the first one, because the community got better at asking questions with the other two.

McBehrer
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Joined: May 15, 2012

Maybe us following up on the hints isn't the problem...


McBehrer is the sole winner of this game... And McBehrer, I would step carefully should you find your way down dark alleys. More than one vote said simply, "McBehrer must die."

McBehrer confirmed to be Biomancer!
-- Trajector

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