Jack Handle + Friendly Fire = Infinite combo?

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Katsue
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Jack Handle + Friendly Fire = Infinite combo?

Setback's Friendly Fire reads:

"Whenever a Hero Target deals a non-Hero Target damage, that Hero may also deal Setback 2 damage of the same type".

I don't know what the current wording of Jack Handle is, but I'm pretty sure it still changes the targeting on all of Mr. Fixer's attempts to deal damage. So as far as I can see there's a loop where Mr. Fixer damages a non-Villain Target, this allows him to attempt to damage Setback, but actually damage all non-Villain Targets, which allows him to attempt to damage Setback, etc.

There's also a less infinite version of this combo using Dual Crowbars and Silver Lining instead of Jack Handle.

 

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I'm sure we will get a ruling that it doesn't, but as far as how it is worded, yes, it would create an infinite loop.

 

Actually, you could loop until Setback was dead just on Friendly fire itself with crowbars.  There has to be some crazy thing you can do with Fixed Point.

 

Edit: left out the part where you need crowbars.

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Well, my problem is that by that logic, you might be able to say that ANY attack with Jack Handle multiplies infinitely: you hit target X, it splits into hitting X, Y, and Z, but then that split attack on X splits, the split attack on Y splits, and the split attack on Z splits... and then repeat that recursively as much as you like.

 

Which obviously isn't how the card is intended to be played, so I think we can rule that damage that's already been modified by Jack Handle won't be modified again.

 

Given THAT, while I am not a game developer or anything, I would say.. You hit somebody while Jackhandle is in play. You can also hit Setback, via Friendly Fire. The original hit splits and hits all non-hero targets. The friendly-fired damage splits and hits all non-hero targets a second time, for 2. (Setback doesn't get unlucky tokens for this attack because he took no damage.)

 

For each of THOSE split damages, you can trigger Friendly Fire, dealing Setback 2 melee (or whatever) damage... except since this is "the same type", it's post jack-handle damage and thus won't split again. But it does give Setback the opportunity for a LOT of unlucky tokens (for an equal amount of damage, of course).

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Benhimself wrote:
For each of THOSE split damages, you can trigger Friendly Fire, dealing Setback 2 melee (or whatever) damage... except since this is "the same type", it's post jack-handle damage and thus won't split again. But it does give Setback the opportunity for a LOT of unlucky tokens (for an equal amount of damage, of course).

AFAIK, there's no such thing as post jack-handle damage for Fixer. He either has one, and it affects all his damage, or he doesn't. The thing is this is actually different from the Fixed Point thing, because instead of a single instance of damage being modified by two effects, it's a bunch of separate instances of damage.

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I think probably the most straightforward errata would be to make Friendly Fire once per turn. It would preserve a lot of the basic functionality of the card (letting Setback drop his hit points below the tank's, bringing his unlucky pool up so that he can get better effects off, and so on), would still allow a strong combo with Mr. Fixer, but wouldn't be crazy and infinite.

Friendly Fire doesn't loop on itself, btw, and I don't think there's a very strong reason to do it either.

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Aww, man, I forgot to take Jack Handle into account... and here I thought I covered all the bases...

*mopes*


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Katsue wrote:

Friendly Fire doesn't loop on itself, btw, and I don't think there's a very strong reason to do it either.

I was thinking with Crowbars it would work that way, just didn't type that part.

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yeah, but with the crowbars you will kill Setback. Plus taking 3 damage (2, increased by 1 for the crowbars themselves) for 2 tokens isn't really worth it, imo.


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You just need to add in fixed point and it wont matter, just like TtE on AZ with Fixed Point, infinite damage.

 

If you have Silver Lining in play  even without fixed point you can drop Setback to 1 or 2 hp, and have a ton of tokens, then discard 

Let's say you are at 25hp, you take 24 damage to get 16 tokens, while Fixer just dealt a villain 24 damage, then one more time you get smacked, to negative HP but with 18 tokens you are restored to 18hp.

That's a net loss of 7hp, for 27 damage to a villain target.

If you have cause and effect you stop at the 24 then on your turn play cause and effect discarding 15 tokens to deal 15 damage to a villain and yourself, but with 1 token left you end up at 1hp.

So if a villain is at 39hp or less they die, or you give up a bit of HP to do a ton of damage to a villain.  That's a pretty good reason to do it.

 
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Katsue wrote:

 

Benhimself wrote:
For each of THOSE split damages, you can trigger Friendly Fire, dealing Setback 2 melee (or whatever) damage... except since this is "the same type", it's post jack-handle damage and thus won't split again. But it does give Setback the opportunity for a LOT of unlucky tokens (for an equal amount of damage, of course).

 

AFAIK, there's no such thing as post jack-handle damage for Fixer. He either has one, and it affects all his damage, or he doesn't. The thing is this is actually different from the Fixed Point thing, because instead of a single instance of damage being modified by two effects, it's a bunch of separate instances of damage.

 

No no no, it's like... okay, Mr. Fixer is fighting Baron Blade, who has two Blade Battalions out.

 

Pre jack-handle: He uses Strike to hit Baron Blade for 1 melee damage.

 

Post jack-handle: He deals 1 melee to Baron Blade and both Blade Battalions.

 

We agree that the Jack Handle's effect doesn't trigger on itself, right? That the damage he would deal to the blade battlions, by using strike on Baron Blade when he has a Jack Handle in play, doesn't ALSO split and hit every non-hero target? And then each instance of that split damage doesn't split again ad infinitum?

 

My proposal is that when Friendly Fire says "the same type", it's not just things like 'melee' or 'fire' but also things like 'already split by Jack Handle'. And thus, wouldn't be split again.

 

Which might not be the intent of the card! But it's a very plausible way to rule it that IMHO-elegantly closes the infinite loop without requiring actual text-changing errata like "the first time each turn". And also carries interesting consequences, like... if Tachyon used a Hypersonic Assault, and Setback choose to get hit by Friendly Fire, would he be unable to deal damage until the start of Tachyon's next turn?

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But, yes, if by "type" they DO just mean "melee vs fire vs whatever", then I agree this is an infinite combo. Mr. Fixer gets ready to lay down some whup-ass on a horde of mooks, trips over Setback, and hilarity ensues.

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It is like a redirection, not a triggered new damage.  Instead of dealing damage to whatever target he would have you deal damage to all non-hero targets.

The inital use of strike is invalid, it doesn't go through.  If Fixer tries to smack AZ when he has jackhandle out he won't hit him.  The attack is changed from "Mr. Fixer deals 1 damage to AZ" to "Mr. Fixer deals one damage to all non-hero targets."

 

It would work with Setback's card because each time you dealt damage with jackhandle you could re-trigger Setback's Friendly fire, it would try to target Setback but instead target each non-hero target, allowing you to once again choose to deal setback damage, which would then be redirected to every non-hero target, allowing you to trigger the card again.

 

I keep looking at Friendly fire, and I keep being more and more amused at Tempest's face, and that flavor text.

It's quickly becoming my favorite card.

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Benhimself wrote:

But, yes, if by "type" they DO just mean "melee vs fire vs whatever", then I agree this is an infinite combo. Mr. Fixer gets ready to lay down some whup-ass on a horde of mooks, trips over Setback, and hilarity ensues.

Type already includes "Irreducible", so there is some precedent for the type having mechanical riders attached.  I like this idea.

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There's not really a way to encode it into the rules, but what I would LIKE to happen is for the damage caused by Friendly Fire to not chain with itself in Mr. Fixer's case. Like, if he already dealt damage, then used Friendly Fire to deal more damage, that's it. No more. Just a case-specific errata. The thing is, it is SO situationally useful that -- besides that ONE exploitive corner case -- there's no balance reason for it to not be able to trigger multiple times per turn. I intentionally worded it that way; with 2 damage, it's a 1-1 trade of HP to tokens, unless you're using a (really rare) damage mitigation effect, so it's hard to come out ahead.

 

I feel like if you made it only able to trigger once per turn in ALL cases, it would undermine its inherent usefulness, which is the ability to burn through HP quickly to rapidly build up tokens. There's a reason Setback first appeared on Shock Rounds, after all, and that reason is THIS CARD. Obviously it can't stay in its current form, or Mr. Fixer can use the 1st-ed Wrest the Mind trick all over again.

 

My proposition would be a simple errata stating that Mr. Fixer, specifically, can only benefit from this card once per turn.


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Well, say Mr. Fixer used Jack Handle fighting the Vengeful Five, except, whoops, tricky Ermine redirects the damage she would take to Legacy!

 

Jack Handle doesn't replace that damage Legacy took with even MORE damage to all non-hero targets, right? Because that damage has already been "jack handled", so to speak.

 

So, when Setback takes damage of "the same type", one COULD argue that it's like... weird redirection that doesn't actually take away the original damage. And also sets the damage to 2. But he gets damage of type "already jack handled", and so it doesn't get replaced again with more damage to all non-hero targets, just like redirected jack handle damage.

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No, it's definitely a second instance of damage. But that would be a viable alternative errata: "damage dealt this way is not affected by Mr. Fixer's "Jack Handle" card."


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jsz2 wrote:

Benhimself wrote:

But, yes, if by "type" they DO just mean "melee vs fire vs whatever", then I agree this is an infinite combo. Mr. Fixer gets ready to lay down some whup-ass on a horde of mooks, trips over Setback, and hilarity ensues.

Type already includes "Irreducible", so there is some precedent for the type having mechanical riders attached.  I like this idea.

wait. what? So Jim's compound bow can do 1 projectile and 1 irreducible? quote/link please?


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lynkfox wrote:

wait. what? So Jim's compound bow can do 1 projectile and 1 irreducible? quote/link please?

Hmm... I just checked the rulebook, and you're right.  Irreducible isn't a type.  I'm not sure why I thought otherwise.

 

What if Friendly Fire was errataed to read: "Whenever a Hero Target deals a non-Hero Target damage, that Hero may also deal Setback 2 of that damage"?

 

This would create a little bit of ambiguity over whether the damage is being copied or redirected, but would solve the Jack Handle problem.

 

Alternate wording: "...that Hero may also deal Setback 2 of the same damage"

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That would imply that you are splitting the damage up, which is not something that is mechanically possible within the rules of Sentinels. Plus it wouldn't account for damage type, and -- because all instances of damage occur simultaneously -- would still feed the loop anyway.

 

Actually, here's my proposal: change the wording of Jack Handle. "Whenever Mr. Fixer would deal damage to exactly 1 non-hero target, deal that damage to all non-hero targets instead." It would get rid of the infinite loop, as well as the unintended Infection shenanigans. Plus it would make it so Friendly Fire could remain as written, and not have to be nerfed heavily or be erratad to mention a specific card.


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But I like the infection shenanigans!

 

I was trying to figure out how to word Friendly Fire so that it worked like Dual Crowbars, only dealing 2 damage instead of the same amount of damage.  Since we've already resolved the Dual Crowbars / Jack Handle infinite loop, that would solve the problem without changing Friendly Fire significantly.  Clearly, I was unsuccessful.

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McBehrer wrote:
Actually, here's my proposal: change the wording of Jack Handle. "Whenever Mr. Fixer would deal damage to exactly 1 non-hero target, deal that damage to all non-hero targets instead."
I like the insertion of "non-hero" into Jack Handle. It does nerf it a little in a number of cases (Infection, Kismet), but I think it's thematically good and fixes this infinite loop. I'm not sure why you specify "exactly 1", though.
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So you want every Tool/Style in Mr Fixer's arsenal to work on him except Jack Handle?

Why do you hate him/consistancy so much? cheeky

 

I don't think Jack Handle is the problem, I think it's working as intended on 'self inflicted' damage, it just needs better wording on cards which could create an infinite loop.


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dpt wrote:

 

McBehrer wrote:
Actually, here's my proposal: change the wording of Jack Handle. "Whenever Mr. Fixer would deal damage to exactly 1 non-hero target, deal that damage to all non-hero targets instead."

 

I like the insertion of "non-hero" into Jack Handle. It does nerf it a little in a number of cases (Infection, Kismet), but I think it's thematically good and fixes this infinite loop. I'm not sure why you specify "exactly 1", though.

It's 'cause if we're fixing Jack Handle, we might as well fix it so it doesn't infinitely loop itself, which in it's current state you could argue it does.  (mostly it doesn't come up, because Jack Handle is obviously not supposed to create an infinite damage loop with itself, but in theory it could be argued that it would)
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Exactly. Just preventing exploitation of possible infinite loops.


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how about on friendly fire you add:  "damage dealt this way can not trigger friendly fire."

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phantaskippy wrote:

how about on friendly fire you add:  "damage dealt this way can not trigger friendly fire."

I think that would work, and would prevent any other redirection effects from creating infinite loops as well.

You'll lose a few interactions that would let you get a few points of damage in without going infinite, but I don't think they're common enough to be much of a loss. (e.g. Smoke Bombs to a Riveting Crane Fixer or Nightmist w/ her redirection out.)

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What about : "Whenever a Hero Target deals a non-Hero Target damage, this card may also deal Setback 2 damage of the same type and with the same damage modifiers."

 


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phantaskippy wrote:

how about on friendly fire you add:  "damage dealt this way can not trigger friendly fire."

This! It's exactly what I was going to suggest while reading this thread.


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It feels slightly less elegant to me than changing Friendly Fire to work like Dual Crowbars, but I can't figure out how to word that change, so this may be the best solution.

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Yeah, I guess that would work. Hooray for not changing my wording!


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I'm new to the forums, and so I apologize if my suggestion goes against an unwritten rule (or a rule I didn't see), but here goes:

What if, instead of errataing specific cards, you were to simply add a rule somewhere along the lines of "If a card interaction would create an infinite loop of repeated actions, each action can occur only once per turn."

i suggest this because a certain other card game with far more complex rules has a similar ruling, involving choosing an arbitrary number of times to repeat the loop. Of course, rewarding the loop isn't the goal here, thus the different wording.

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I think the >G crew would rather it never even got that far, but if it was absolutely necessary, I suspect they'd go for a meta-rule like that rather than allow infinite combos.


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It's less thematic, but maybe setback should deal himself the damage for FF instead of the other heros? Or just have fixer deal the 2 damage to setback regardless of what jack handle says. 

one thing is for sure, infinite loops are not intended. 

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... that works too. Having Setback deal the damage himself. Actually, I like that better. No errata required.

 

"Whenever a Hero target deals damage to a non-hero target, Setback may deal himself 2 damage of the same type. If he takes damage this way, add 2 tokens to his unlucky pool."


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McBehrer wrote:

"Whenever a Hero target deals damage to a non-hero target, Setback may deal himself 2 damage of the same type. If he takes damage this way, add 2 tokens to his unlucky pool."

It does seem like the best solution in terms of any possible future issues that might arise, without nerfing either character.

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yeah, and he doesn't have any self-damage buffs, now that they fixed High-Risk...

That is my final decision on it.

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Having Setback deal the damage would be mechanically different, though.  Self-buffs on the damaging player like the Staff of Ra or Bloodly Knuckles wouldn't apply, which would cause him to take less damage.

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Ok. Buffs like Galvanize and Imbued Fire still would, though. The intent of the card isn't for him to take a BUNCH of damage. In fact, 2 was the smallest number that wouldn't get blocked out by having any DR at all. It is thoroughly in line with my intent for the card.


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jsz2 wrote:

 

lynkfox wrote:
wait. what? So Jim's compound bow can do 1 projectile and 1 irreducible? quote/link please?

 

Hmm... I just checked the rulebook, and you're right.  Irreducible isn't a type.

It isn't a type, but it is a modifier that DOES carry through redirection.  "Jack-Handled" could likewise.

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McBehrer wrote:

"Whenever Mr. Fixer would deal damage to exactly 1 non-hero target, deal that damage to all non-hero targets instead." It would get rid of the infinite loop, as well as the unintended Infection shenanigans. Plus it would make it so Friendly Fire could remain as written, and not have to be nerfed heavily or be erratad to mention a specific card.

I LOVE this and actually thought they would do this a long time ago.

Matchstickman wrote:

So you want every Tool/Style in Mr Fixer's arsenal to work on him except Jack Handle? Why do you hate him/consistancy so much? cheeky I don't think Jack Handle is the problem, I think it's working as intended on 'self inflicted' damage, it just needs better wording on cards which could create an infinite loop.

Actually I do have him use Crowbars on himself if he has Mantis out and wants to hit the same taget twice, but I don't see him Pipe Wrenching himself too often.  Although I'm pretty sure thats why the smiley face.

I do think Jackhandle is the problem.  It sounds like interactions with infection may not have been intended, and even if they were it has already caused some unitended interactions (such as this one). Its wording makes it a constant issue to watch for in new cards.  Do you really want to have to look at the "Pocket Jack Handle Case" any time you create a card that invovles heroes doing each other damage? Do you want to have to change any future cards that would invovle heroes hitting heroes when you could change one card and not have to worry about it in the future.

When the ruling came out on Crowbars that said that you recalculate bonuses rather then doing the exact same amount regardless of of armor or immunity I thought a Jack Handle fix wasn't far behind.

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I don't think they worry about Legacies danger sense every time they make a new environment card, or Wrest the mind every time they make a mook that can hit hard.

I don't think one card from one hero is going to make a huge difference.  I don't think many cards will let you trigger damage to a hero every time you deal damage to a non-hero.  There aren't many situations where that makes sense.

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Sefirit wrote:

 

McBehrer wrote:
"Whenever Mr. Fixer would deal damage to exactly 1 non-hero target, deal that damage to all non-hero targets instead." It would get rid of the infinite loop, as well as the unintended Infection shenanigans. Plus it would make it so Friendly Fire could remain as written, and not have to be nerfed heavily or be erratad to mention a specific card.

 

I LOVE this and actually thought they would do this a long time ago.

I think (hope ?) this wasn't "corrected" because Jack Handle is meant to be also a defensive cards - the card the old martial arts master uses when he wants to be sure he won't hurt any one on his team.


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environment cards doing damage doesn't cause infinite loops.


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McBehrer wrote:

environment cards doing damage doesn't cause infinite loops.

... yet.

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Friendly Fire is the card that allows you to deal damage an arbitrary number of times, so it's the card where any abusive combos will originate.

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I'v been thinking about this over the weekend and I havn't come to anything new, but just more confident in the bandaid fix. Im sad I missed this during PTing.

As a simple bandaid fix, I'll just be ignoring Jack-Handle when dealing setback any Friendly Fire damage. That seems like the best way to handle this. Id rather Setback *not* deal himself the damage as it would kill any useful synergy with High Risk Behavior. I know that causes a ton of cognitive dissonance with how Jack-Handle works on infections, but I can't think of any other way to keep the intent of the interactions going while getting rid of unintended Infinite damage combo.

 

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Foote wrote:
 Id rather Setback *not* deal himself the damage as it would kill any useful synergy with High Risk Behavior.

Huh?  High Risk Behavior doesn't increase damage he deals to himself anymore.

 

Another easy fix would be to add a "the first time each turn" to Friendly Fire, then it wouldn't redirect more than once.


"I'm not prone to hyperbole, but she is the Antichrist." - chwineka

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broccoli wrote:

 

Foote wrote:
 Id rather Setback *not* deal himself the damage as it would kill any useful synergy with High Risk Behavior.

 

Huh?  High Risk Behavior doesn't increase damage he deals to himself anymore. Another easy fix would be to add a "the first time each turn" to Friendly Fire, then it wouldn't redirect more than once.

Oh right right. Nvm on that point then. Maybe Setback hitting himself is the best way to go as errata? I think it would be overly nerfy to add the first time tag on FF. If I were to pick on of the two solutions, I know where my vote would go.

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TheSoundOfTrees wrote:

I think (hope ?) this wasn't "corrected" because Jack Handle is meant to be also a defensive cards - the card the old martial arts master uses when he wants to be sure he won't hurt any one on his team.

Was it?  I don't know I've heard varied reports.  I don't know that it was actually intended to work with infection, etc that way.  You could be right however.

phantaskippy wrote:

I don't think they worry about Legacies danger sense every time they make a new environment card, or Wrest the mind every time they make a mook that can hit hard.I don't think one card from one hero is going to make a huge difference.  I don't think many cards will let you trigger damage to a hero every time you deal damage to a non-hero.  There aren't many situations where that makes sense.

Neither of those cause infinite loops.  Neither one has so much potential for unintended consequences.  I might go so far as to say no other card has so much potential to cause unintended consequences.

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Isn't "unintended consequences" pretty much the whole point of Setback?


"Is there beauty in a forest, if no creature stops and calls it lovely, now and then? Isn't that what 'sapience' is for?"
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broccoli wrote:

 Another easy fix would be to add a "the first time each turn" to Friendly Fire, then it wouldn't redirect more than once.

Although true that would nerf if for heros that hit more than once per turn.

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